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Spider Top Unlocked

Discussion in '348/355' started by Roth, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    #1 Roth, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
    For most of us, the 355 is a car of choice. What ever the reason we got to have one. While some of its technology is a first, it is more than 20 years old. Certain things are old and worn out. Those system could use an update to reduce the trouble points at the same time more users friendly utilizing current technology. Those who owns a Spider top likely experienced a few hiccups at one time or another. What I am about to propose is an attempt to minimize those hiccups and add a cool factor to the 355 top experience.

    Given all things in working orders, The top activate by pulling a switch and hold it down until the top completes its cycle. In the 90’s this function was cool. Today not so much. Smart phones, laptops, briefcase, these are some the things an average person carries daily. Our hands are full. There isn’t an extra hand to pull down the top switch and hold it for a minute. You lawyers, doctors and weekend warriors know this problem well and for years no one can do anything about it. Well, not anymore. I just finished the control circuit for the Spider top. I think most will like it.

    The circuit allows Spider top activation in conjunction with the seats movement in two ways with just a click or a pull. One, use the existing switch in the center counsel. The second option, does it with a remote control. You read it right, a car remote control. Car remote controls today have at least one or two auxiliary buttons. These button can be utilized to activate the Spider top up and down. Which ever method, center counsel or a remote, we have the technology. So here’s how it works.

    Let say the top is up. Push the open auxiliary button. The seats move forward to a set position far enough for the top to tuck in behind it. The seats then stop. Irrespective of the seats position, both have to come to the assigned limit before the next action takes place. Once both seats stop, the top goes down. After the top is all the way down, If the seats are in the set forward position already, the top will go down immediately. The same process takes place when top up button or switch is pressed. What is not shown, in the control portion for the seats to move back once the top down completes its function. That’s because the seats would limit access installing the top cover. All wiring is done in the new control box. Four wires require relocating from the RC box to the new one. Control circuit for the top without seats movement is more simpler. Only two wires. Installation can be done by a car alarm technician. Note, a few details in circuit intentionally omitted to prevent intellectual copy cat. Unless you are familiar with PLC, Line Ladder Logic or a engineer, the control circuit may look foreign. Its a ratification of the intention.

    OK, gentlemen, comments, opinions, yea, nay. All ears.





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  3. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    I'll bite. :) I haven't found that there is a problem installing or removing the top cover with the seats in my driving position. While my driver's seat position isn't all the way back (maybe 90%), I do have the seat back tilted back as far as it can go; still not much of a problem. Plus, since you have to get out of the car to put the cover on/off, 1) It's hard to in/get out with the driver's seat forward, and 2) with the seat all the way back, if there is a clearance problem, since you have to get out of the car anyway to put the cover on/off, it's a simple thing to reach down and tilt the seat back forward to gain clearance.
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    I'm not familiar with the symbology/abbreviations in your diagram, so I'm not sure which sensors are still being used. All? None? Some?

    Are any safety features being overridden? e.g. If the Window Controller or Window motor fails to drop a window and you don't notice it, can you slam a door shut and smash the window on part of the roof frame?

    If you still keep the old sensors and the mechanicals are the same, you will not gain much in reliability.

    I still think the old roof system is pretty cool and a novelty because I don't use it so often. A wireless remote would be something. A non-wireless remote would be ugly (IMHO) and old-fashioned. Both types would add extra complexity to an already complex system.
     
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  5. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Have you prototyped this or is this just at the thinking stage?
     
  6. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    QaVion, The naming and lettering are designers specific relative to parts, usage and or intention. The format is Line Ladder Logic community standard. The idea is omits all micro switches and potentiometers. We can add each one as needed later but without using existing RC box. Adding a remote function is actually easier than adding the seats control. The remote is a self contain unit. All needed is an auxiliary module that comes with the remote. The control circuit allows a remote add on later without having to open up the box and do messy wiring. Plainly put, what’s is in the drawing is done internally in the new control box. There are connector inputs outside the box for Additional devices such an alarm. Plug and play operation is the idea. Car alarm installers and most folks can do themselves. It wouldn’t be feasible any other way. And by the way, I believe I understand why Ferrari chose to use potentiometers for the seats function. You’re on a roll. Now find the schematic for the slow down light. I am anxious. LoL


    Yelcap, I haven’t put all the parts together yet. I am lazy digging around electrical/electronics vendors for parts I need. And to be honest the financial motivation isn’t there.:) If you or you know someone with experience installing a few electrical/ electronics items on a PC board, we can partner up on this. I am confident of my control circuit. Anyway, I see what I can do to come up with a rough version and you can test it on your spider. :) I recall you have two and one isn’t working. LoL

    What I’m really interested is working with an electronic outfit that fabricates electronic components.
     
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  8. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    I believe, Wolfgang22 is an electronic guru. Ill see what he thinks.
     
  9. eyboro

    eyboro Formula Junior
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    Do you mean to do what I did on my car 11 years ago?

     
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  10. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Seems a pretty simple mod. What, just an RF remote DPDT switch wired in parallel with the original top switch?

    Care to share to parts source.?
     
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  11. eyboro

    eyboro Formula Junior
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  13. drbob101

    drbob101 F1 Rookie
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    I’m in!!
     
  14. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Looks like Ratarossa has bypassed the seat function... or does he simply have short legs (and the seats are always forward)? :p

     
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  16. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    LoL, I had to watch it twice to see the action.

    My theory: I think he moved the seats forward using the seats switches prior to roof activation. Once roof all the way down, he moves the seats back. Notice his right hand comes into scene afterward.

    Reason: To intentionally bypass the seats potentiometers, one has to understand how the Roof Control utilizes the input. According to the schematic each seat does three things in unison. Bypassing one action is easy. All three much much difficult. Video shows two of three actions at work. :)

    QaVion, whats the word on immobolizer schematic.
     
  17. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    ??? Sorry, did you ask a question on this earlier? 5.2? No schematics for the ECU or interface unit internals, but here's the external wiring diagram:

    5.2_Alarm_System

    You may need other diagrams to see how it interfaces with lights, doors, etc. There are some minor differences noted from car to car... and some major ones. The immobiliser doesn't inhibit engine cranking on some cars.
     
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  18. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

    Apr 1, 2016
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    Beside other missing schematics, notice the key switch wires for position 1 and 2 don't go anywhere. This is important as they turn on all electronic devices in the car.I know the immobilizer prevent engine start up. Im curious to see what devices are involved and perhaps bypass those. Three things to look at: the fuel pump, starter solenoid and the spark plugs coil. I see the fuel pump in the schematic. Thats easy to bypass. Whats not shown are the coil and solenoid. identify those wire and we're cooking with fire.

    Key position 1: tuns on cigaret lighter, door chime and all interior lights.
    Key position 2: turns all electronics devices and engine start up ready mode including spark plugs coil.
    Key position 3: (momentary) turns on starter solenoid.

    The immobilizer according to the schematic cut off fuel when activated. divorce the electrical relationship by removing wires for fuel pump and engage with normally open relay contacts for key position 2. Find spark plugs power wires and place on same relay. Its that simple. The immobilizer is out. At this point it stills lock and unlock doors , give off siren and the whole nine yard. Now, if you add an after market two way alarm pager, the rest can be transferred. the new alarm setup can be used to operate the spider like we talked about earlier. It also allow remote start within range. Also, if you add a mobile wifi hotspot to your car
     
  19. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    QaVion, you have schematic for the SD Light gizmo also? Lets put that be rest also. LoL :)
     
  20. Qavion

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    #17 Qavion, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    The additional wires are not shown because the diagram would be too complex. Why don't you download my (5.2) zip file which has all the WSM diagrams and most of the wires?

    F355_5.2_WiringDiagrams.zip

    (Note that it's updated/modified/corrected on an almost daily basis)

    It would probably be best to talk to the immobiliser experts. I assumed the Motronics ECU would simply not send ignition and fuel injection signals (as well as having the capability of disabling power to these systems).

    There are clearly a lot of variations between these cars. e.g. Some folks don't need to turn on the ignition to get the cigarette lighter to work, some need to go to Position II.
    Interior lights should work with battery (or don't your lights come on when you open the door?)
    Some immobilisers inhibit cranking, others don't. On F1 cars, cranking is inhibited by the F1 TCU.

    Sounds like someone else has cabin fever :D
     
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  21. Qavion

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    The purpose of the SD light is to protect your cats from melting. If you don't care, just use Technistrada's no-cat solution or make your own bypass plugs:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/simple-2-7-slow-down-ecu-replacement-only-for-no-cats.538719/#post-145063021

    It works for 5.2's, also. My slightly neater solution is also shown in detail in that thread. Wbt incorporated this in his commercial product.
     
  22. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    #19 Roth, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    I see this. Its in the schematic. The "TCU" doesn't prohibit engine start up. Its a part of the immobilizer system. The immobilizer does that by limiting power to the fuel pump. This is important in case of lost broken FOB and pin code. Just bypass the immoilizer.

    We talked about extensively, Everyone knows what the SD light does, its a nusiance trouble. I dont think its the SD Control or thermo coupler causing the issues. I think in most casesits the electrical in between. A Sd Control schematic gives a bigger picture. Thats why I asked.
     
  23. Qavion

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    I was talking about cranking only. The solenoid of the start relay (on an F1) receives a signal only from the F1 TCU. I've been told you can crank the engine on an immobilised F1 car, so as far as I know, it's only F1 system sensors which can inhibit cranking.

    For info.. The 5.2 immobiliser has no direct control over the fuel pump relay. The immobiliser signal has to go through the Motronics ECU. The Motronics ECU controls ignition/fuel injector power relay ("M")... and this controls fuel pump power relay "N".

    Relay M controls power to:
    fuel injectors
    exhaust bypass valve solenoid
    fuel tank vent solenoid
    Cat thermocouple ECUs
    Idle Speed regulator
    MAF
    Cam sensor

    If, as you say, the immobiliser controls engine running by limiting power to the fuel pump, to defeat the immobiliser, you would have to provide power to not only the fuel pump (by alternate means), you would have find a way of providing power to all the other components controlled by relay "M".

    The ECU provides an earth to energise relay "M"s solenoid. On the other side of the solenoid is battery power, so you would have to do an awful lot of rewiring to get these components to use ignition key power.


    Do you mean the internal wiring of the Motronics ECU? Each thermocouple ECU talks to the Motronics ECU and the Motronics ECU controls the respective bank and the SD light. It's all done with ECU hardware/software. You can only defeat the system by:
    1) providing a constant "temperature ok" signal to the ECU or
    2) changing the ECU hardware/software

    All the external wiring for the SD system can be found on the Engine Control System wiring diagrams (and the Fig 11 for the instrument panel light)
     
  24. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

    Apr 1, 2016
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    All things have been accounted for. I have an F1. Engine cranks when in gear but will not start. Two plausible reasons for this. Immobilizer cuts off electrical power to spark plugs coil or the fuel pump. It is a common practice to limit fuel. The schematic shows this to be the case. This is not an issue. The fuel pump electrical wires are indentified. The other electronics essential to engine start are on a relay. That relay sends electrical power to the electronics when key is in position two. For remote start function, the relay power has to transfer from the key switch to a remote switch with the fuel pump start motor solenoid. By taking the essential electronics, the fuel pump and the spark plugs coil to a remote relay, the immobilizer is immobilized (punt intended). This is important because if you loose the PIN code, the red fob, you won’t be dead in the water. With the new alarm system, you can lock unlock door. Arm, disarm alarm without going through the immobilizer.


    The primary purpose here is to bypass the immobilizer using an alarm system available. The added benefit comes in the form of cool factor. You can roll windows up or down remotely. Open, close spider top remotely. Start engine remotely. An if you decide on an alarm system that has smart phone interface, you can start your car in your garage while hiking the Himalayas. OK, there’s a limitation. You must have internet access.

    In the meantime I’m putting things together for the spider top/seats remote operation using a two way alarm setup. The same alarm will take over the immobilizer in a later date. There is no secret about the 355. Just hidden details need looking into. By the way, to replace the seats potentiometer, there must be two limit switches on each seat at opposite ends. Its crowded underneath so a customized brackets is essential. The 3D printer you talked about will come in handy.
     
  25. Qavion

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    I guess one way to monitor this would be to check for an earth on relay M during cranking with the immobiliser ON. If the immobiliser does inhibit start this way, there is no "or". It's an "and".

    Having an F1 would certainly simplify things. The schematic may only show half the story, however...

    You would have to ensure that the ECU is only stopping engine operation by disabling relay "M" and not by additional measures such as disabling injector or spark control. Perhaps Gobble or the other experts already have an answer to this. I was concerned that the ECU may be using the same method to immobilise the engine as, say, shutting off fuel and/or ignition during rev limiting or SD-type bank shutdown. During rev limiting and SD bank shutdown, it think it unlikely relay M would be de-activated as that removes power from engine sensors (including the MAF) and the pump.

    Understood, but relay activation is not automatic (with the application of ignition power). It still relies on an earth from the ECU (or an add-on alarm system).

    With any bypass system, you would have to ensure that the ECU can't detect your bypass and throw up a CEL or hidden fault. The ECU does monitor the solenoid circuits of several components.

    You would also have to ensure that your bypass/replacement alarm system is more reliable than what it replaces. Quite a few serious electrical problems on Ferrari's seems to be related to add-on components (aftermarket stereos and alarms). For some reason, a previous owner fitted a toggle switch to the relay panel circuits on my car which activates the fuel pump (when the ignition is turned on). So far it's been more of a worry than an asset.
     
  26. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    Picked up a few electrical items for bench testing. Waiting for a few more parts to arrive. I decided on a method. Windows up/down. seats forward/backward, top up/down. These operation is achieved via a smart phone. Im trying to leave existing devices intact and function as intended. The roof manual unlock handle is an obstacle.

    The diagram of the seat switches is not entirely correct. There is only one selector type switch in each. The two wires, one above and one below do not have electrical relation with the center wires as shown in the diagram. It got me scratching my head so I took it apart to verify. What I don't see is the output for the windows from the Top Control Unit.
     
  27. Qavion

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    #24 Qavion, Apr 19, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
    There is no output from the roof controller to the windows. The window controller only looks at the roof microswitches, some of which also input to the roof controller. There will be splices in the wiring to facilitate this. The window controller operates independently from the roof controller. You can disconnect the roof controller and the windows will still "do their thing".

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    Above, I've marked the switch contacts 1~5. Do you mean 1 and 5 are not connected to the black earth wire... or 2 and 4?

    On my car, the LED illuminates when the ignition is turned on (It's independent of the steering column stalk switch).

    Is the switch wired up something like this?

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    I can't remember if the 5 switch pins are inline.
     
  28. Qavion

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