StartedFromTheBottom - A Warning to Others

Such a painful lesson, you want to trust people...but...

Two lessons for us readers here:

1) Don't pay in advance (at least hold half. I've made this mistake myself too many times)
2) Don't pay one person whilst dealing with another.

Because...of course...its always about the money. Its just a plain old simple truism about humans. Money trumps all for virtually all of us. Sad, but true.

For me at least, there is a third lesson, don't do business with this Carlo guy.

 

You two misunderstand the process here. We are an electronic forum and most anyone can post most anything, within the specified rules of forum behavior. Once posted, we keep the content up for all to see. As moderators, we neither endorse nor condemn sellers or buyers. That's between you two and the audience that is observing. We encourage public involvement because we feel: 1) the truth is more likely to come out, and 2) in the end the community is better off being aware of the good and the bad among the sellers and buyers here. We typically only ban someone if there is clear evidence of criminal fraud, which is rare. Most everything else we consider a dispute between seller and buyer that is between them to resolve.

So don't expect what you just requested, but rather expect the following:
- this thread will not be locked for any reason apparent to me at this time
- take as long as you want to respond, but know that posts will continue to be made while you take your time
- at the conclusion, if there is one, nothing of this thread will be deleted and it will be searchable and readable by anyone interested in following up on either seller or buyer
- so the longer it takes to resolve, then the more at fault will current and future readers regard as to whichever they consider the offending party
- beyond that, how it works out is entirely between you guys and it will stay on record for any interested parties in the future

 

I’m sure the seller is reading this still, so please, if you want us all to stop commenting , answer me this:

When accused of committing deception at best, fraud at its worst, can you really expect us to believe you can not devote 30 minutes or so immediately to get on the phone/email and explain yourself to the OP?

We, the audience, don’t count a jot, we are here providing opinion as we do on everything, but you have to see that when a seller, whether agent for someone else or not, has arranged to relieve a member of a
Sizeable amount of cash, failed to provide the goods as promised, and then offers only excuses for months after, we are bound to be erring on the side of the buyer.

Put up and we will all shut up mate. Is your business not worth the small amount of time to make a definitive refund in this case?, at least if your commission if nothing else?

I wish I was in Australia for the OP!, I think timebomb would have fun getting his tan on and sampling the amber nectar with Aircon and that luny Morretti!!!! ) (joking guys!)


Forza Ferrari..... the only racing team and car marque that matters. Italia forever It’s easier to apologise than it is to ask permission

 

Buyer paid $1100 for something 4 months ago. Buyer did not receive.

If I was seller, refund or prove buyer did receive it.

That's it.

Just some background on me:
I have sold things in 10,000+ transactions on eBay over 20 years, proud to have 100% feedback rating. I think I can speak with at least a minimum level of authority on how to treat buyers ethically.

 

Very interesting how situations like this always start with the seller being super cooperative and proactive to seal the deal, always available to answer questions and promise the earth and then as the transaction starts to unravel the seller is suddenly too busy to deal with things and needs extra time, then there’s radio silence.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

If the commenting does not stop does that mean he won't take an hour this weekend to reply?

 

Yep. The Internet accomplishes what used to take us years to achieve in a few short minutes. Can destroy a reputation just as quickly.

 

$1300 will be long forgotten in 6 months but this Internet gift is for keeps!

 

I recently purchased a. $2300 item from Started from the Bottom (CARLO) and. sent him the money Via PAYPAL and
I will admit it was risky but I received the item exactly as described about 4 weeks later with no issue...

 

I'm speculating that it probably was an item in his possession which is materially different than Carlo relying on someone else. I have no doubt he has far more good transactions than bad because this issue would have surfaced long ago. That said.....he has had more than enough time to correct this transaction and he has not. In the age of the internet.....response time is everything.

I can appreciate Jason's frustration. He deserves better than a lame: "I'm too busy to respond". What Carlo may not understand is that this thread will stay active until he resolves it. Eventually....it will kill or materially reduce his business because buyers will not trust him.

 

That's only because everyone knows not to screw Larry H....

 

Let’s see if I can get things right…

First of all, I want to clarify:

There was no need in the whole process up to now to make any personal details of him and me public. The whole issue could have been discussed without all of that. Somebody trying to threaten me via calling my university… what is wrong with you guys? Unnecessary very insensitive behaviour Jason of revealing all that information. Just throwing everything in you have. When some neutral judges decide that I have done something wrong then you can MAYBE share such information -STILL WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A MURDER HERE!- but as long as it is about FACTS names and addresses or where I live have NOTHING to do with the issue. And if some fellows here seriously think about threatening me by investigating my personal life I wish you that you never meet me in personal life. I don’t understand fun about that.

Second to emphasize this again. You won’t receive any personal details from me. Peter never wanted to be involved too much in this. All his career he stayed humble in the background. And now again you will blame me for that. I don’t care, I’m protecting him. He has taken the time out to collect all the things and write down to his best means what he thinks is relevant. There’s no point in involving him in all this ****storm. He never wanted or asked me to be in direct and he never will be. I’m happily taking all the hits from you.

Now back to facts:

What you ordered Jason was partially not a yet existing product. Yes, some documents have been existing upfront and yes I have confirmed you receive originals as stated. I ALWAYS forwarded your requests 1 BY 1 and asked whether he wants me to translate it or not. He was fine he said.
I told you right from the beginning this could take time and I am not overlooking this all the time. I gave you rough dates where everything should be ready but not WILL BE ready with 100% certainty. You pressured me to send the documents (shown in chat) without that I could even have a look at it because I was not there when the parcel went out otherwise I would have noticed that these have not been originals which were meant to be sent. As you can see by our chat upon arrival at your place I immediately agreed that he needs to have understood something wrong concerning the original documents. He agreed and asked me to have the copies sent back so that he can keep those and sent you the originals together with an expanded story. You refused to do so because you were thinking you are the only one allowed to possess them. What a ridiculous idea that you’ll ever make somebody write down a story of his life and forbid himself to make copies of that... is this modern slavery or what… I want to mention again that you wrote: there will be no copies made and offered for sale. There’s an and condition which tells me copies he keeps for himself are ok. He s never been the guy who would actively go out and sell that anyways.
He combined somehow the requested background story and CV to the best means what He thought would be relevant. He’s 70+ years old... he didn’t learn how to write a CV like it is meant to be today and of course he can’t probably recapture every race he was attending and how the weather was that day... It is the best interpretation he had in that moment of adding value to the documents you were asking for.
It is the same when you go to the architect and order a plan for a house. He might nod his head but still completely misunderstood your ideas.
And I a normal world everybody comes back to the table and discusses what went wrong. He even agreed to that ******** that you don’t want to send back the copies... he said ok He’ll go again to make copies for him and then send the originals TOGETHER with the additional story information. I’ve always been following up on him every two weeks to ask for the status and promised you that he’ll provide it when it is ready. THIS IS NOTHING YOU JUST PULL OUT OF THE PART STORAGE. He has been putting a lot of effort in the past documents (all the pages of the original concept) and the new document. You should have given a page reference for all that CV and background story topic and I could have given that to him and see if that appears too much to him and we would have never run into this. Numbers are the same in German as in English. But in this way, he wrote for the new document by best means what he thought would be relevant. And concerning the detailed paperwork about the racing series concept, this is definitely a monthly process.
And exactly as explained before I forwarded the wish of you for more details And he said yes he can do that but wanted to know for what you need that degree of detail. You said just for yourself. Well done... couldn’t be more discrepancy than this. All the time I had the intention to provide you with further information once it is written down and ready. People write years on their autobiography and you think a guy who had never done something with writing just snaps his fingers and recaps his life in a few hours and it is there? You should have either set a clear deadline and amount of pages you were expecting right from the beginning or you should have put your expectations lower. I’m sorry but work has been done Jason and I won’t ask him to refund anything. And I can’t believe you guys starting to believe I’d set up an account under a false name and would invent all this whole story. Think about what you want. I know I did my best to bring across all the wishes and correction measures. And although I’m really so upset by your unthankfulness like pretending you can’t even read the copies because they are „so worthless“ to you, I’m still agreeing that originals need to be provided and will be provided along with the additional info which I directly requested after it has been mentioned.

If the overall story is disappointing to you because it is not as exciting s you expected it to be then what should I say about it? You can’t buy a book, read it and then say oh that was ****ty I give it back. When you pay for information, you still have no guarantee about the quality.
Please remember your own words when you agreed on my proposal: „Maybe a few typed pages sort of thing. And if he could also put as part of that what his CV is in terms of jobs with top-level racing teams in Germany, and tie it all together.“ That sounds for me like Peter tied it all together…
On top, you paid basically 900€ for all the original pictures of the testing and the original 62 pages of the racing series concept with handwritten notes which you received as copies by now. YES, Originals to be provided together with the additional information Peter was willing to give if you keep this discrete. I ALWAYS told that they will come once he finished the additional writing and all the copying again because you were too frenzy about giving back copies to the original author. REMEMBER: you only paid 200€ extra for this information. That was basically representing his efforts to put down the CV And background story which he did in one three page handwritten document (and is probably a bit less I personally agree that’s why we agreed he’d put down more after you agreed to keep this information confidential) and the copying effort of everything. I am a man of honesty if I say that something will be provided it will be. But I’m not pushing him to write when he wants to think more carefully about what he puts... and he was right… especially if I see now how much you honour his work and how sensitive you are in handling the information. I am in contact with him and he said he’s struggling with finding a copy shop because the one in his village closed down. AND YES LAUGH ABOUT IT AS MUCH AS YOU WANT THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD ME AND I BELIEVE HIM BECAUSE I KNOW HE KNOWS ABOUT HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE THESE PAPERS. AND YES IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME NOW - I SEE THE CALENDAR FLYING MYSELF - AND YES I DIDN’T FORGET AND KINDLY REMINDED HIM OF THAT REGULARLY BUT I CAN’T JUST DO THE WORK. You’ll receive the originals in nearer future alongside with an addition to the background story you’ve already received. Since you insisted on keeping the copies of the series concept you could anyways already start studying them because the content will be no different no matter if you got originals or copies…

Again: if you had some particular format and amount of pages in mind when considering all this you should just have specified it and he would have eventually backed out. I don’t see the mistake here on our side. The only thing I need to apologize for is: Yes the delivery has never been fast but it was delivered and the originals will be delivered. Specify a clear page no., layout and deadline and this would have never happened. Of course, I understand that the timeline is unsatisfying but that’s how it is now. Start checking what you got and you’ll receive the rest soon, is the only recommendation I can give.

Everybody reading this think about it what you want. I can’t believe all this trash talk and personal attacks from other’s while quickly reading through the thread and not even catching all the details. I’m feeling sad for you all having fun in creating rumours and personal threatening before having heard both sides. And if you still think that I did wrong… go for it. I know that I’m trying to give everybody who ever got something from me the best and most honest information flow possible and there are plenty of mates around who’ll happily confirm that.

On top of that just to let anybody know who gets some satisfaction from keeping the rumour alive: I won’t be reading this thread or answering any other personal messages about that topic because I don’t have space or time for that amount of negative energy right now in my life. As some of our smart Sherlocks here are already trying to find out where I live to feel free to visit me and we can have a nice personal chat if we stumble into each other. I’ll try to stay calm but can’t promise anything if you show the same level of respect as some of you did in previous replies.

 

^^^ wow, that's a lotta words. My summation would have been:

The seller telling the buyer:
1) in the seller's opinion, the buyer didn't specify what you wanted in adequate detail for the creator to do this quickly/efficiently, thus causing delays
2) yes, we sent copies rather than the originals of some of the documents. It was an honest error that will be corrected eventually.
3) yes, the whole project is taking longer than we all thought it would, you will get it eventually
4) no, I'm not refunding you any money regardless of how long it takes

Seems pretty simple really.

Fwiw, if it were me, and if it was from anyone I was doing business with, I would expect/refund the money due to a customer who's expectations were not met and a very delayed delivery date. Its just money - and in this case its not a lot of money by any relevant standard. I'd have done it nicely and quickly because one's (business) character is proven by how they treat their customers when things go wrong (not when they run well). Then you would have had a customer for life and maybe even a reference for how you resolve things when things go wrong. Heck he likely would have bought the materials when they are finally available.

But...from reading your replies here, it appears to me that your ego and the money are driving your customer service response.

 

I gotta add...Carlo is far from the first vendor to fail to (timely) deliver due to an upstream supplier issue/delay. Carlo, I accept your position at face value that you are minimally, if at all, to blame for the lack of total clarity on what Peter should create, nor the delays in that creation, nor the sending of the copies rather than originals.

Suppliers failing to supply happens in most businesses...this isn't some new and unknown "gee what should I do for *my* customer given the situation" to figure out. The solution for well-regarded businesses is pretty obvious and well-trodden. Carlo - that is what is perplexing and providing such easy cannon fodder for those of us following along. Allowing the customer to cancel the order with a refund is one such path. Giving the customer a discount from your slice of the fee is another. Asking the supplier to chip in is another. But simply letting the customer hang with no recourse from you nor the supplier whilst you keep all of his money? THAT is a seldom traveled path.

 

I agree. If I was Carlo, I would refund the money, collect all the original documents, schedule an in person video with Peter and put together a media package for a writer. Sell said package for 10,000€ euros and not look back.

 

I couldn’t make it through the entire response. Have peter make his own copies and send the originals. Done, one problem solved. Who cares if the OP has copies and the original he can run them off for pennies anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

I'm not sure that you are helping yourself using the usual refrain: "I'm too busy to resolve this". Also, threatening potential customers is also a dubious Sales strategy. Even your supporters can't defend you when you stay on this path. Why would anyone buy something from you if they knew you might be "too busy" to send what you agreed to and then refuse to refund their money?

It's up to you but it is my opinion that you have seriously damaged your reputation over $1,300 and learned nothing from the experience. You alone have created the "negative energy" that you complain about.

Just an observation.....the people I know who claim to have "Started from the Bottom" are not afraid to use bottom dwelling tactics in their business.

 

I know that others have had good experiences buying from this individual, but I certainly wouldn't take the chance. It seems that you are fine as long as all goes well. In the event that all does not go smoothly, I'm not sure that he has the time or the will to make things right.

No thank you.
Kevin

 

So Carlo expects some 'respect' ?

What planet is he on ?

 

Amen.

 

Paul as always the voice of wisdom !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

After reading this entire thing Ive come to the conclusion both parties are 'difficult' people who only want to see their perspective. neither seems to have any interest in understanding the others perspective.

Add to that one acting as a middleman to a third party who doesnt speak English and is 70+ years old.

This is what you get.

 

I have read thru this entire thread very carefully. And tried to understand everything.
I have one question: What proof there is that "the third party wo doesn't speak English and is 70+ years old" really exists?
Just asking. Maybe I missed something.
If anybody can clarify this for me, please. Thank you very much.

Marcel Massini

 

In Post #45, Jason says he paid the money to Peter. However, in Post #54, Jason says he needs Peter's contact info from Carlos in order to take it up with Peter and that Carlos has not responded with Peter's contact info. Further, later on in Post #87 Carlos says he intends to protect Peter's privacy and will not give out Peter's contact info.

Based on all of that, it appears that Jason must have made a wire transfer to an account number Carlos identified as being Peter's but that otherwise there is no evidence yet apparent that Peter actually exists.