Starter advice?

Literally. The Dino I've had for two weeks has been running great, but this starting issue is getting to be a real pain in the ass. It's a total crapshoot, even though it supposedly has a brand new rebuilt Dinoplex unit in it. Tonight it wouldn't go at all, so I had to leave it down at my cousin's house and take a lift home, and I'll go get it in the morning (if it will start then!) or I guess it's flatbed time to the house until I sort out what to do next. This was the first time I couldn't coax it to go at all.

I really don't wanna become a mechanic, but I've read that a modern hi-torque gear reduction starter will probably solve the problem. I want to keep the car "original", but I guess I'd sacrifice that in order to have some confidence that it will turn over every time, and stick the Dinoplex in a box.

Any opinions on this one while I try to get over leaving my expensive new toy in my cosuin's driveway as my brother got a good laugh??

 

Hmmm... I found info on switching to the emergency coil in the handbook, and a couple of threads... maybe that'll do it tomorrow. If one of the new units will solve this, I'm all for it.

 

We got rid of the Dinoplex 18 years ago and installed an aftermarket ignition system. No starting issues since then except in cold conditions. Originality is fine until it becomes a functional liability.

I've heard that the modern starters are good, but haven't needed one yet. (Knock knock)

 

I had a similiar problem ever since I got my Dino 20 yrs ago. When cold it would start first time, nearly every time. If I stopped and then tried to restart it, nuttin". Maybe it would turn over, maybe just a click. When I first got the car a mechanic removed the dinoplex and installed an aftermarket ignition system. Maybe a little better, maybe. It got to the point where if I went out for a drive, I would only do an out and back trip. If I needed gas I got it at the absolute beginning of my venture. No fun at all. I could never trust the car. I would never take it far from home. My mechanic said that the starter was heat soaking. It seemed to make sense. They rebuilt the original starter. Not significantly better. Still no fun to take out. After a while we just installed an aftermarket starter, Bosch, if I remember correctly. That solved that problem.

 

I just got rid of all my hot start problems by replacing the original starter
with a gear reduction starter. The car starts so easily now that it feels like I'm cheating. No more embarrassing moments, no more flooded carbs. I wish I had done this years ago.

 

What is the problem; starter not engaging or the combustion not "catching"?

I had starter engaging problems while attending the FCA National meet in Monterey in 1994. It was so bad that I needed a push start on the ending, departure day and drove home across two States without shutting the engine off.

When I got home I found that cleaning the connector located by that hot exhaust manifold was the culprit and even today the starter still engages quickly today.

 

I tried switching the plug from the coil in the back per the owner's manual, but still nada. Maybe a click, maybe a sputter, but that's it. Not getting close to combustion.

Gee, today will be my first flatbed exerience with the Dino. No place to roll start it where it was, so once it's got to be moved, may as well bring it all the way!

I think I'm going modern. The trick will be to find someone around here to do it... I just don't have the time/tools/ability/brains/desire. Between Westchester and Greenwich there has to be someone decent & trustworthy.

 

I was advised by a tech several years to floor the gas pedal and not pump it while starting the car. It has worked flawlessly for me since then.

 

maybe this is obvious, but it could be a bad starter. i have never had a problem with my dino's.

 

Sounds like two different issues.

Does the engine crank strongly? If it's cranking ok, then the starter isn't the problem.

If it cranks slow, which is normal as far as I know, a switch to a better starter will definitely help. I replaced mine with the one from superformance and have not had a cranking problem since.

Oh, and the more rapid cranking will help with hot engine starts.

IF it doesn't have any fire, or just a little, it could be carbs, plugs, timing, gap, or the dinoplex.

Has the car had a tune up recently?

Finally, if the Dinoplex is at fault, you can get a replacement unit that looks original, but has more modern electronics in it. Again, I bought mine at Superformance, but I'm sure others have/make it.

If you want the best dino guy in the Northeast, send the car to Algar in Philly. It's a short ride on a flat bed, couple hours I guess, and it'll get worked on by my mechanic, who has taken my ratty Dino and make it a world beater. They're not cheap, but would you hire a plumber to do brain surgery? I think not. Get the best, pay for it, but then be assured that the car will run like a top.

And, when you come to pick it up, I'll buy you lunch.

 

Gentlemen, we need more information.

If the starter is cranking, then it is unlikely to be a starter issue.

1) Perhaps the battery is marginal, coupled with an older starter such that the bus voltage is dropping below that necessary to ignite the plugs, or

2) The ignition components (spark plugs, wires, coil, coil wire, coil +B and ground contacts) are all in need of refreshing or replacing, or

3) Carburettors are out of tune, including accelerator jets or chokes sticking, or mixture simply too far off, or

4) Timing and/or points are in need of checking/replacing, or

5) Fuel starvation, or

6) Something else...

This is not a difficult issue to resolve, but it does take a systematic approach less one chases their tail with $100 bills.

First, do you get spark? This is simple to determine both functionally and diagnostically. If you cannot tell from the sound of the sputter, then simply remove ALL of the sparkplugs and watch one tip as it lies against a chassis ground (engine). You should see spark - good spark with the CD. If you do not, then there is your answer. I would test this with all of your plugs. In fact, I would change the plugs while you have them out. Are the plugs wet??? If there oil blow-by that is fouling the plugs. This should not occur with all six plugs. Are they wet with oil or gas????

If you get spark with the starter cranking and the plugs out, then do you get spark with the engine cranking and all plugs IN? Use a screwdriver to ground to test one sparkplug lead. With the plugs in, the starter is working harder, and you will test whether voltage drop is cutting off spark production.

Clean the coil leads with sandpaper.

I know that you do not want to become a mechanic, so buy a 6-pack and invite a friend over. Tom Champion lives close to you...and he knows more about Dinos than most. In fact, he is an expert. Contact him on this site or give him a call.

Jim S.

 

Funny, but I just received a PM from 4redno (Keith W.) about starter motor issues. According to Keith, another Dino owner here in the Seattle area removed his starter and had the contacts on the starter gold dipped and hasn't had a problem in 20 years. Keith is planning to do this very soon and, if I'm lucky, I hope to be able to help (or watch) him remove the starter and then help him put it back in. If he doesn't post on this thread soon, I'll contact him and ask him to comment.

Mark

 

OK. Being a handy guy, and figuring I might as well give it a shot before igniting a small pile of hundred dollar bills, I figured I'd try the easy stuff recommended here, and if that failed, send the Dino out to the spa and go back to the old Mustang while it was gone, which is plenty of fun if you steer slow and don't mind the rattling!

First, I took out the battery, cleaned all the leads, charged it, replaced it. While it was charging, I detached the coil plugs and sanded them, and returned them to their original position.

Then I made a really good grilled poussin with whole grain mustard, rosemary and garlic and had a couple of glasses of Nuits Saint Georges les Boudots.

Then I walked out to the garage, turned the key and the little bastard started up just like nothing ever happened. First shot, strong like bull.

Then I shook my head and thought about my brother, the head of Clinical Genetics at Sloan Kettering LAUGHING at me when the car wouldn't start last night. This is the same guy who saves thousands of human lives but mercilessly slaughtered a pristine 1961 Mercedes 220 he bought from David Rockefeller's attache (who bought it from David Rockefeller) right out from under me when I was graduating from college. 10 years later, about 1990, I had it flatbedded over to me, and the thing was unsalvageable -- rot, rust, everything shot to hell, even the burled wood dash panels blistered and cracked. (He of course stored it out in the salt air of Long Island when he wasn't having his butcher mechanic in Cambridge -- not Frick and Frack the Tappet Brothers--fabricate parts for it out of aluminum foil). I gave it to an insane Norwegian who showed up in a 1974 Ford Country Squire wagon with a trailer, his six kids and his wife also in tow, eating a whole leg of lamb, and seemingly thrilled to have this fetid heap for a project.

I'll be interested to see tomorrow if this changes the completely unpredictable hot starts -- or if it changes its mind overnight and doesn't want to wake up. I'm going to put in a fresh battery, too, because I have no idea when this one comes from, though it looks pretty clean.If it's still balky, I think it's time to modernize.

BTW, I've been trying to hail Tom, but he seems to be off email & PM here -- or maybe it's just me... I wanted to ride over and see his two cars!

 

I haven't had any poussin since my girlfriend moved out of state a couple of weeks ago...

Glad to hear it worked out! Electricity is a mysterious and wonderful thing.

 

So happy for you to know that your Dino is alive and well without burning dollar bills. Happy driving. w/smiles Jimmy

 

Mike - sounds like you solved today's mystery. Tomorrow is another day.

I will PM you Tom's e-mail. Go see his cars. He is a great guy and knows a great deal about Dinos.

Have fun.

Jim S.

 

This sounds like the starter contact issue. I've had this same problem and it is as you've described - intermittent and particularly common after the car is warm and needs to be restarted. It can be embarrassing, aggravating and problematic.

As Mark (Dinogts) noted, I am about to do as another Dino owner did to his car years ago and gold plate my starter solenoid contacts. I'm told they are inside the starter which shouldn't be that hard to remove. I'll be sure to take pictures and post (I'm going to try to start this weekend). His startups have been trouble free for 20 years since doing this.

Of course, the reduction starter is probably an even easier and quicker fix but if you want to keep the original starter in the car, go for the gold.

Cheers...Keith

 

Keith - wait one.

Mike - when you say "...it wouldn't go at all...", do you mean that the starter would not crank the engine over, or that it labored, or that it cranked but would not come to life?

Keith - getting the starter out is rather involved, not to speak of the pain in the back and buttocks. You must remove the trunk firewall, the aft exhaust header, and then you can get to the starter.

I had similar problems on one of my cars, and a total rotisserie restoration resolved it. However, I suspect that neither of you want to push this snowball down the hill, hence, take each step one at a time.

I still do not understand the nature of the problem. Is it a poorly functioning starter motor, or is the starter motor turning and the engine won't start?

Mike's problem may simply be that the battery is tired, and during cranking the voltage to the coil gets low enough that it cannot create a secondary voltage necessary to jump the spark plug gap. One easy test is to see if the car starts easily when connected in parallel with another battery (as in when jumping with another car). If placing another (known to be good) battery in parallel solves the problem, then one easy solution is to purchase a new battery. That is not to say that there are not other problems, that if present would compound the tired battery output, but at least it is an easy and inexpensive solution.

Cleaning the coil contacts, both B+ and ground, provides more current to flow through the primary of the coil. This could be a big help. Old or wet sparkplugs will make starting difficult.

As I outlined in my previous post, diagnosis is critical, and solutions are easy once identified (unless there truly is a bad starter).

Jim S.

 

As noted earlier, my friend did this on his car and he assures me that you can get the starter out by removing the rear wheel, the cover in that wheel bay and it's pretty straightforward from there on out. I also have my Dino up on a two post lift which obviously makes things a lot easier (but your concerns for my back and buttocks are greatly appreciated).

The oxidation on the starter solenoid contacts is most likely the source of the problem in my case and the symptoms with Mark's car sound identical. Gold conducts electricity very well and is extremely resistant to corrosion - hence the idea.

We shall see. Either way, I'll be the man with the golden Dino which should be worth some increased level of cache!

...Keith

 

The problem (apart from the hot start issue, which is totally different) was the starter made maybe one turn and just stopped -- nothing else at all. The only thing different about the trip I made before it wouldn't restart was that I used the lights for the first time -- about a 20-minute run down to Greenwich, Ct. The car had started OK -- a bit unusually -- cranked up immediately, then died twice before staying alive with a little modulation on the throttle.

I did notice the generator warning light came on while driving intermittently, a bit more/longer than usual (in the three weeks I've had it, it generally flickers on a bit at idle, at least until everything's warm - I assume that's normal as I've lots of cars do that!).

Hot starting is a crapshoot -- some times, with the acellerator to the floor, it revs right up, other times just a click and nothing for a couple of tries, then maybe an almost, then a good one. It can be a 5-second operation, or two minutes.

I never charged the battery in three weeks, as it has always started eventually, and didn't sit for more than four days at a stretch. Since the clock is dead, doesn't seem like there's anything to drain it?

 

Sounds like it could also be an alternator issue (sometimes oil leaks onto the alternator and ends up turning into grease within the alternator), but I wouldn't ignore the starter contact issues that Keith mentioned. I think you are going to need to check the whole charging and starting components . . . which it appears you have already resolved eventually to do.

Mark

Mark

 

A good Burgundy is magic!

 

A good Burgundy is magic!

 

My clock drained the battery even though it was not running. I finally disconnected it by pulling the hot lead.

 

Yes, no question about it, the clock will drain the battery even if not running. Most clock failures (I have seen three) are due to the main shaft jumping out of the constrained dimple-bushing. However, the electromagnetic coil is still connected to the hot lead, hence you have a rather low resistance short to ground.

You starter symptoms sound more like a failing battery. The battery may be failing as a result of age, poor charging, or constant discharging (as in clock issue). CLeaning the starter contacts will always help, and may be sufficient vis-a-vis starter issues.

Which generator warning light are you referring to??? My Dino does not have an idiot light! The ampere meter will reveal charging/discharging.

If you do have an idiot light, it will not be dependent on engine temperature, as you suggested it might. The alternator and other charging components (regulator, brushes, etc.) should function cold or hot, and immediately upon start-up.

Mark's (Dinogts) comment about oil on the alternator leading to failure is spot on. I have had three fail this way. Whenever the engine is out, I pay great attention to the area above and in proximity to the alternator, before cleaning the engine. A common area of oil leaking is the valve cover gasket on the forward head, and this can soak the alternator. Another area is around the heat exchanger. You may want to get a flashlight down there and look to see if the alternator is wet with oil.

At the very least, experiment on several occasions with starting the car while jumped to another battery. If it starts quickly, I would first replace the battery.

Jim S.