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Starting delay F1 360

Discussion in '360/430' started by Art H, Jan 13, 2022.

  1. Art H

    Art H Karting
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    Apr 15, 2014
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    My 2003 360 has developed an issue when starting the car. After the F1 pump pressurises , I turn the key and step on the brake pedal. It should start immediately, however I have to wait approximately 15 to 20 seconds and then it will start. I’ve taken it To the mechanic several times. He could never pinpoint the problem. He checked the oil level on the F1 pump And recently changed the solenoid. It still has the delay. What do you think this problem is?
     
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  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Does it do that in both 1st and neutral?
     
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  4. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    #3 whatheheck, Jan 14, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
    Two things I can think of:

    Failing brake position switch. (Remove & replace)

    Engine start button circuitry going bad. (Remove & replace engine start switch)

    Dan


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  5. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

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    Connect up voltmeter to starter solenoid, press start and see if you get 12 volts straight away. If like the 430 there might be a relay behind the seat, change for a similar and see if that helps. Spray relay base with contact cleaner
     
  6. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    Does it happen only on cold start, or even just after having switch off the car with the F1 system fully pressurized ?
    When you turn the key, do you wait for the check OK AND the end of the F1 pump actuation ? On a cold start, opening the door is just the priming of the system, the pump should start again when you turn the key. Try to listen to it and to try to start only after the pump has been switched off.
     
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  8. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    I'm trying to understand what happens on the F1 cars. Does the F1 gear display always show "N" and the gearbox go into neutral when engine start is requested? Or will it remain in the last gear selected if the brake is applied?

    There is no start button (unlike the F430).

    How would these devices create a 15~20 second delay? Usually they are "go" or "no go". Or is their logic in the TCU which says "The brake is not being applied and engine start is being commanded.... but I think it will be ok for me to start if the gearbox is in neutral after a certain time delay"

    For info, there is a relay behind the left hand seat for starter solenoid on the 360.

    Unfortunately, the manual is in Italianish...

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  9. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Why is there a "may also flash for... 10 seconds" ?
     
  10. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    As I wrote, this additional time with F1 light ON is for the F1 pump to fully pressurised the circuit.
    Only then, the TCU will command the clutch to open and will enable the starter circuit.
    If the motor of the F1 pump is old or worn, this time can increase.
     
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  11. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    If you try to start with the car in 1st gear (1 on display) , foot on the brake pedal, the TCU will first build the pressure in the F1 circuit, then it will open the clutch, then it will select N (N on display), then it will enable the starter circuit.
     
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  13. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Thanks, Eric. I assumed that was why Terry asked :

    i.e. is it quicker if the car is already in "N" (with less hydromechanical bits operating)
     
  14. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
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    I am just wondering if the relay is sticking or on its last legs, if like the 430 lots relays the same so easy to swap as a test.
    He needs to find out if solenoid is getting 12 volts as soon as key turned or is their delay
     
  15. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    On my 2016 California T I had the same issue.
    Sometimes the engine wont start, it will take 3 tries, then it will finally start.

    My car is under extended warranty so I took it to the dealer.

    Repair paperwork said they discovered failing / intermittent brake position switch.
    They also discovered that the engine start switch is intermittent so they replaced both parts and now all is good again.
     
  16. Art H

    Art H Karting
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    Hi guys , thanks for your input. Just got back online. When the car has been sitting for more than 10 minutes , it takes at least15to 20 seconds to start after the initial pressurizing achieved with openigthe door. It doesn’t matter whether it’s in neutral or first. The brake switch was changed and so was the relay....... same problem. I’m also starting to believe that the accutator motor is weak. Thanks
     
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  17. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Actuator motor? Do you mean the F1 hydraulic pump motor?

    If the delay is still present with the gearbox already in neutral, the F1 gearbox system doesn't need to spend any time putting the gearbox into neutral prior to start. I don't see then how low hydraulic pressure would cause a start delay.
     
  18. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

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    The system is either up to pressure or the pump will still be running. If the pump has stopped then u r back to electrics
     
  19. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    #16 eric355, Jan 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
    In both cases (N or 1), the TCU wants to open the clutch before enabling the starter circuit. To open the clutch, the TCU waits for the pressure to raise above a given threshold. This variable delay depends mainly on the health of the pump.

    At door opening, the pressure is built up to a low threshold which is not enough for an immediate start. At key in position 2, the TCU is commanding again the pump to build the full pressure.

    Again there is a very simple test the OP can do to confirm whether this is the issue or not :
    On a clod start (low pressure in the circuit), key in position 2, wait for the check OK and try to start immediately : that should not work
    On a clod start (low pressure in the circuit), key in position 2, wait for the check OK, wait for the F1 pump to stop working : the car should start right away
     
  20. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Seems odd to me that the system still wants to open the clutch in neutral, but who knows what was going on in the designers' heads. Is this stated in the manual somewhere? Can't seem to find it.
     
  21. Art H

    Art H Karting
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    Good morning I’ll try that today and see what happens
     
  22. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
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    It's quite a common, and safe, practice on a manual car to press the clutch pedal before starting. This can avoid you some trouble if, in a hurry, you have missed the check that the car is in N.
    It's safe also on a F1, even if the TCU is always checking that the car is in N. In case of failure on the engagement potentiometer, it could happen that the TCU is reading N while the car is in another gear. Better to have the clutch open in a such a case. OK, quite unprobable but ...

    As this is quite transparent for the user, I don't think it is written in the manual.
     
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  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Ian- Ferrari F1 clutches are always open when stopped, whether in neutral or in gear. So it has to open before she will start, even in neutral. In neutral, there is just one step less before start than in 1st or R, which is why OMs say to put her in neutral before start. I always park in 1st and then select neutral before start.
     
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  24. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Good point. I do do this on my manual cars. I thought that the potentiometer position would override the necessity to do this, but as you say, they can fail.
     
  25. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Ian- F1 Ferraris with low batteries have been known to lurch forwards when started in 1st. Another reason to start in neutral.
     
  26. Qavion

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    Something tells me that this stuff is way over my head :p

    So either the low voltage stops the hydraulic pump from generating enough pressure and/or there is simply not enough voltage to activate the solenoid valve coils... but then how do you select neutral? (or is little/no pressure required for neutral selection?). I'm trying to remember if it takes constant hydraulic pressure for a gear to remain engaged or if the F1 gearbox defaults to neutral (through, say, spring pressure) if hydraulic pressure is lost.
     
  27. Husker

    Husker F1 Veteran
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    Is it cranking 15-20 seconds and THEN starting? Big distinction.
     
  28. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Ian- The low battery apparently inhibits the system from shifting to neutral on start, but the system allows the starter to engage because it sees neutral has been commanded.
     
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