State of the Ferrari/exotic market

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by tbakowsky, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    While watching the Barret Jackson Auction I noticed very little interest in the Ferrari's and other Import brands. Even the MB 300Sl gull Wing did not fetch the numbers it once would have. Why is this? Why can a cookie cutter 55 chev sell for 210k and a Ferrari vintage racer can't meet the reserve price or a Daytona goes for under market value.

    Is it possiable that peole are realizing that these car really aren't that great? Maybe they get more bang for the buck from a North American Hotrod which sold for 400k? Any thought on this?
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  3. DGS

    DGS Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
    Full Name:
    I was wondering, myself, if the post-9/11 nationalism revival wasn't playing a part in inflating all the old American iron.

    Or maybe it's just that Ferrari buyers know the value, and don't tend to get into a bidding war way beyond the car's value. (It seemed like Speed Channel went to a commercial whenever a Ferrari came up on auction. Too boring to watch people bid what it's worth, I guess.)

    Or maybe it's getting harder to sell a Ferrari without an individual PPI.

    While the Lincoln was approaching the 400K mark, Jackson seemed to be wearing his "Puck" expression. ("Lord, what fools these mortals be") ;)

    It does seem to say something about the health of the economy that they got near the total figures record set back in the dot-com era.
  4. yesod

    yesod Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2003
    Full Name:
    What made me mad was the fact they kept going to commercials when the ferrari's came up. I know at least three times this happened.
  5. rudy

    rudy Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2004
    Los Angeles California
    Full Name:
    Rudy Hassen
    I think you're right. Muscle cars are the hot thing. American cars were never bad in concept, just weak in execution at times. But when Detroit made a good one, it was good!
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    They did cut the Ferrai's out quite a bit but maybe there really isn't any interest in them anymore. But that 308 to 288GTO convertiable kit car went for 50k!! go figure.
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  8. Mako99

    Mako99 Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    Ferrari has ramped up to producing more than 1500 cars a year now, they've diluted the limited availability of the brand in the search for more revenue. That's a good thing for us (drivers) and a bad thing for auctions (collectors).

    I can't help but think that's part of the reason why there is very little movement in the market right now, even though vintage cars are of course no longer in production. It's also part of the reason why the 355 is absolutely plummeting in resale value by the minute, at a faster rate than the 348 did before it, which fell at a faster rate than the 328 previously, etc etc. The Ferraris that are produced in bulk are falling faster than they ever did, again due in some part to the increased supply.

    It will happen to Lambo owners too, who typically enjoyed very strong resale values on the Diablo (if purchased at MSRP of coure). Now that Audi is gearing up for a massive production assault for Lambo (over 2500 cars per year) the resale values of the Murci and Gallardo will reflect the unlimited supply.
  9. vref

    vref Karting

    Dec 18, 2003
    1 Hr North of Housto
    Full Name:
    I think alot of those buys were emotional buys (wanted the car as a kid). I watched one guy buy 3 corvettes for over $125K each. While the black 355B barely did $78K, for the Bill Medley car.

    Here are the results from

    710 1973 FERRARI 246 GTS SPYDER SOLD 76,680
    716 1995 FERRARI 355 BERLINETTA "Bill Medley" SOLD 78,840
    714 1997 FERRARI 355 SPIDER CONVERTIBLE SOLD 101,520
    384 1967 FERRARI 365 GT 2+2 SOLD 86,400
    643 1969 FERRARI 365 GT 2+2 SOLD 50,760
    665 1972 FERRARI 365 GTC/4 SOLD 43,740
    186 1972 FERRARI 365 GTC/4 COUPE SOLD 43,740
    84 1981 FERRARI 400i COUPE SOLD 25,920
    • 771 1987 FERRARI 412 COUPE SOLD 48,600
    702 2001 FERRARI 550 BARCHETTA SOLD 271,080
    131 1967 FERRARI DINO COUPE SOLD 18,360
  10. normhuff

    normhuff Formula Junior

    Dec 14, 2003
    Peoria, IL
    Full Name:
    J. Norman Huff, Esq.
    I wrote down all 18 lot numbers for the Ferraris, but gave up when Speed seemed to always break away from coverage just before the number came up. One time the announcers did come back after break and mention what the Ferrari sold for during commercial, so all was not lost I suppose. Plus when I didn't blink I caught a teaser clip of an F40 from a previous auction...
  11. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    I was shocked to see that sale, As once you looked at the car up close you could see that seemed to be hacked together. i was not impressed with it at all. Some of the Ferraris looked to be in decent shape up close and otheres had a few flaws. But real questions was what kind of mechanical gremlins were lurking inside of them.

    In all fairness my girlfriend was going GA GA over the mid 50's Chevys there. But looking up close to a lot of them they had flaws also.

    The 412i that sold was a very nice looking example inside and out the 400i while the color was nice you could see it had a few flaws on the outside and the seats showed lots of wear. But in all that was perhaps one of the best looking 400i i have seen to date.
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  13. bluekawala

    bluekawala Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2004
    Ormond Beach, FL
    Are you serious?! 400K for a Lincoln?! What kind of Lincoln was it? It better have Kennedy's Licoln only gold plated! I can speak for several people here in the midwest, not me though(!), in saying that they 'don't want to pay a bunch of money for something thats harder to maintain and not any faster.' Obviously their talking about acceleration and the quarter mile, but even so I think their crazy. I would agree that when Americans make a good car it is indeed a good car! In the main though they're nothing special. And even special factory COPO Camaro's and Trans Am Mustangs have nothing on a vintage Ferrari! IMO
    I read a Ferrari book and apparently there was a magazine back in the 80's that took a 512 BB and covered all the badges and asked people in a midwest parking lot what they would pay for said car. The answers were sad everybody was saying around 8000 when in reality it cost 50000! Its sad to think there are really people who'd rather have a truck then a Ferrari... I guess thats good for us enthusiasts though!
  14. rudy

    rudy Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2004
    Los Angeles California
    Full Name:
    Rudy Hassen
    I think it ad air conditioning and power windows.
  15. Exoticbro

    Exoticbro Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    St.Louis, MO
    Full Name:
    Chuck Ligon
    I sat and watched in disbelief when these chevy's
    and the Lincoln fecthed this kind of $$$$$$.
    What were these guys thinking!!!

    These are custom cars and could be built for MUCH less
    than the $200k and $400k they were bringing.

    I will tell you there are alot of custom HOT ROD shops
    loving this, and out looking for every rusted out 55-57 Chevy
    they can pick up for $2500-$5000.

    I thought something was collectible when it was unique
    and could not be recreated.
  16. Husker

    Husker F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 31, 2003
    western hemisphere
    Did it go for $18,000, or $81,000? If it was $18K it had to have been an absolute mess - even then I couldn't see it going for $18K. Typo?
  17. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    If i am not mistaken it was a 2+2 not a 246
  18. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Yep Guys....I share your puzzlement at the rediculous prices paid. I will grant you that some of those street rods are rolling works of art more than they are the car they are based on. And that Lincoln was truly awesome, but not to the tune of $400K !! It really confuses me, you can't be rich and be money-stupid at the same time, but you wouldn't know it by the amount of money thrown at those street rods. Even the rod builders and owners were amazed....sometimes getting double what they expected! And the price for even the "replica" street rods was out of this world. There really weren't many "substantial" foreign cars crossing the block with the exception of the Ferrari 166 and the gull winged Mercedes cars. The bidding crowd was mostly a meat and potatos group, interested primarily in American cars. Yes....the prices paid will have an immediate influence on street rodders and muscle car retorers everywhere. It may even be profitable to restore these cars, instead of doing it for passion alone as in the past. All the hoopla still doesn't get me all excited about getting a street rod or muscle car...I'll stick with my Italian Lady in the garage, tempermental though she is! If somebody buys a real LS-6 Chevelle for big bucks and drives it, nobody else will know how special it is. They will simply think "ahhh....another 454 Chevelle". I think that would suck. When I had a ZR-1 Corvette, even with the wider body and other numerous differences from a standard vette, the car had an identity crisis something awful. People just didn't realize...not even other vette guys. Those replica street rods...what do you say when someone asks the big it real? You paid how much for THAT....and it isn't even a real one!?! I did enjoy the auction anyway, but I am disappointed about the poor showing made by the foreign cars. In my opinion the auction was "designed" from the beginning to focus on mostly domestic stuff. And it does say a lot for the U.S. economy bouncing back...maybe that was it's purpose? To give a shot in the arm?

    Either way...I'll stay with my Ferrari.
  19. vette79

    vette79 Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    yes there are a lot of customs that are getting high prices, it doesnt seem worth it to me. but i CAN see why a lot of the stock high-performance cars get some cash. the LS-6 chevelle from '70 is one of them.

    there were quite a few of these "nothing special" cars. these cars are getting rare today which is why many of them command a high price that seems unreasonable.

    one prime example of this was the L-88, an aluminum head 427 built by chevrolet. they were put into vettes and camaros in the late sixties until 1970. these cars were intended to be something that would only be sold to people that had intentions of racing them. they did this by downtalking the car, rating it at a laughable 430 horses when the output was realistically closer to 550. anyone who was in racing took one look at the specs of the motor and knew better. stock, there was another motor rated at a truthful 435 so many people overlooked the L-88, except of course for the racers. one car with a full exhaust and a stripped interior ran a mid eleven second quarter mile.
    also there was an aluminum version of the L-88 called the ZL-1, which was allowed to be tested by about 30 different journalists in '69. flat 11 second runs were normal, with an auto tranny which is pretty impressive. best run of the day was a 10.89 second quarter mile run. skidpad testing showed about .78 on bias ply and about .97 on track tires, which is pretty impressive for something from the 60's. shows that the suspension was a killer setup that just needed some stickier tires. cars like these are why you see high prices for some of the american iron. they are out there. customs? not worth it to me. but something that has a colorful history like the ZL-1 cars or the L-88 cars would be worth it to me.
  20. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 5, 2002
    Full Name:
    My thoughts exactly! When the Lincoln hot rod went for $400K, I thought that the price was probably at least $200K over its replacement cost. Since there was nothing really original, except for the engine (which undoubtedly added to the value), the entire car could be replicated without harming its "collectibility".

    When it seems that all of the good Corvettes and Cheys went for over $100K, and there were thousands of them made each year, makes you wonder why a 365GTC/4 (and they only made 500 of those) could barely make $40K.

    Just shows that the car buyer these days is more likely to be a 40-50's aged guy that grew up with Chevys, rather than Ferraris in his dreams.

  21. labcars

    labcars Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2003
    Phila. + Scottsdale
    The "Ferrari" Dino coupe was actually a "Fiat" Dino coupe, and properly brought $18,000.

    Rob is right, though. Much of what was there, Ferrari wise, was of little "collector" interest. The '73 246GTS was a rough car (I know, I own 08508) and was more than fully priced with buyers commission, and $101k for a 19k miles, '97 spider and $79k for a run of the mill '95 berlinetta (who cares if Bill Medley owned it), were both "all the money" and then some.

    Prices were stronger than last year, particularly for hot rods, but hey, that's what makes america great, no?!?!

    PS. Rob, I kept trying to call you on the cell phone you gave me, but I kept getting a "this number is not in service" message. Oh, well, next time.
  22. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jul 20, 2003
    Full Name:
    Dirty Harry
    In times of uncertainty, such as the 80's - '87-'89 in particular - certain segments of car markets are booming.

    Then comes the bust. Newton's Law, as it applies to collectible cars.

    It's a seller's market for Clean American Iron now and may be for a few years, but when the dust settles, those who laughed all the way to the bank will share the last of a good, long laugh with those who bought other overlooked segments whose tchotchke prices were at the opposite end of a crest. Bear in mind, just as the clean (only sweat is on the bid, not the repair) American cars are raising the highest eyebrows and bids, the rough (sweat is on bid because of work) German, Italian... cars aren't. For what it's worth, a Gullwing sold for @350K very quickly at one dealer I keep an eye on here in L.A. only in the past week.

    There will be loads of lesser examples of American rides flooding the market which will assist in the tug-of-war. After the boom, those who bought "high" will only be able to sell "low."
  23. henryr

    henryr F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 10, 2003
    Full Name:
    Juan Sánchez Villa-L
    corvette prices vary widely based solely on options. alot of those vettes were 1 of 20-50 made deals, even though they made thousands of that same model year.
  24. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    Full Name:
    I would have to agree with you guys, very unhappy watching the same cars on the block. Hey , I love all things American but at least show the odd Jag, or F-car, even a ROlls or Bently would of been fun.

    I am still puzzled over the replica GT40 cars fetching that kind of coin. I know its a fun run, but a 355 with 19miles went for less money and its a real car. Don't get it.....maybe if these f-cars keep dropping we'll all buy a few more and ask stupid money if we ever want to sell them.
    Just my .2$
  25. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess

    I dont know what to say since i did get a couple of calls while i was there. Perhaps the next time you make it out to the valley of the sun we can get together.

  26. flashman

    flashman Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2004
    Star Valley, Arizona
    Full Name:
    William Rappaport
    I just returned from spending 4 days at the auction, and all I can say is that it was disgusting! I am personally convinced that these auction people are manipulating and over infalting the collecter car market for their own personal greedy advantages. Cars that should have commanded high prices based on marque and their history were left in the dust. What is really interesting, is that these same car's ( Detroit Iron, Hot Rod's),seem to turn up at every auction across the country, and the price always seems to increase. I firmly believe that this bubble will burst one of these days. My 2 cents worth.
  27. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2003
    SBarbara-La Jolla CA
    Full Name:
    I taped all 15 hours that the Speed channel showed on my TIVO. It took me about a half hour to watch on fast forward stopping for the Ferrari's and few other odd cars. Mostly commercials and same old same old.
  28. mbarr

    mbarr Karting

    Jan 11, 2004
    I can't really comment on the street rods, but I've followed the corvette/camaro market for many years. The cars with big motors continue to increase in value. Refusing to buy these cars for the last 15 or so years (thinking they are overvalued) has only cost me money. When does the bubble burst?

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