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Stock 360 lap times at Laguna

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Gary(SF), Aug 20, 2004.

  1. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 3, 2001
    11,237
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    Randy
    is that... Brett, the current owner of the PMUM S2000? if so... please update with a report (hopefully not to hijack this thread with it).
     
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  3. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
    Full Name:
    Jon K.
    Ok....let me see if I can get this straight.

    Your car a "modified" street 355 on slicks which weighs roughly 3200 pounds w/o driver and makes about 375 - 380 hp (295-300 rwhp) is only a tad slower than .......

    ....to use the correct term as you pointed out a 2002 996 GT3RS which must weigh 2450 under ALMS rules for 2002 and makes somewhere around 445-460 hp at the crank

    AND YOUR CAR is only 10 seconds slower

    AND your buddy who races PCA (oh yeah 13/13 rule that's real racin') has done a mid 1:2XXX something which would be faster than Luhr's time (ever hear of the guy).

    .........in a LESS prepped GT3RS and we've never heard of him and he can't get an ALMS drive.

    I guess your buddy would show a three time LeMans winning facotry driver his tail lights hun.......................

    In January at Homestead Speedway I tested both a 02 spec GT3 Cup car (that is running in SGS Rolex this year) and a 02 spec w/ 03 updates GT3 RS and let me tell you, the RS was so far ahead of my 355 Challenge I couldn't believe it. Even the GT3 Cup seemed better balanced, faster in corners, and more stable at high speed and this one still had the factory Porsche shocks that everyone throws out for Penske's and Motons.

    I am interested to know what you did, short of actually putting in a Challenge suspension and Challenge brakes that makes your car handle like one. I had some minor Challenge parts (sway bar links, poly bushings, factory Challenge wing, and F40/F50 Brembo brakes) and it didn't even get close to transforming my car into a Challenge car.

    Want to be more specific about your "near" Challenge car or is this a secret?

    Yeah.....everyone on the internet does fast lap times. I see it all the time on F-Chat and other boards but when they show up at an FCA event and someone (me) times them suddenly the car is having issues (brakes are overheatin', tires have a zillion heat cycles, set up is wrong, blah, blah, blah...............).

    Then we have people who take their little Hot Lap transmitter and stand in front of their car and wait xxx amount of time to scan it by their reciever in the car and whalla .....................hey I did a freakin xxxx time last session.

    I actually caught some buffon doing this when he claimed he was faster in his Porsche than my 355 C.

    I on the other hand actually post my times I bragg about on the internet (my website) for other's to see with real in car video footage. Like my 2:07 or 2:08 at the Glen. Gee suddenly no one except my good buddy Matt can get those times anymore, the track must have changed.

    On the internet, fast lap times are like opinions and a$$holes..............

    .........everyone got em'.

    Why don't you put in an in car video camera and then post it as an mpeg file here on F-Chat so you can shut the rest of us up.

    I am not F1 talent, but it was a rare occassion when any Ferrari (save a F40 LM or well driven 333 SP), or any of your PCA buddies with their GT3's ever passed me on a track.

    Hell, I have in car footage at Summit Point of me running nose to tail in my 355 C for half a session with former factory driver David Murray in a PCA's GT3 Cup car (now racing with Planet Earth Motorsports in SGS in Rolex Grand Am and Peterson White Lightening GT3 RSR in ALMS). Many east coast PCA folks here use David to set up their cars for club racing since they can't do it themselves. Boy this is smart..........have Kevin Buckler or David Murray set the car up for a world class driver and then have average Joe Schmoe try to drive it.

    Lucas Luhr would likely pass my a$$ with 5 cylinders running but that can't be said for 99% of the PCA racers out there.

    I have a hard time believing you are only 1 1/2 maybe 2 off of Drendell's time in a street 355 with slicks and a few Challenge mods, but if so............

    ..........you need to do some testing with a few Grand Am/ALMS teams.

    I know at least one two Grand Am teams that are looking for a paid driver, but if you are that fast maybe they foot the bill for you. Email me if you are interested to contact them.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  4. brett

    brett Rookie

    Aug 24, 2004
    2
    'tis I.

    It's sitting in the garage and runs RRREALLY strong. I haven't had a chance to get it to the track yet, it's too damn hot here.

    It laid waste to a freind's '04 E55 thrice (118mph trap speed)...so it's got some speed now. I can't wait to get it to the track, and I'll keep you posted when I get a chance.
     
  5. OT Challenge

    OT Challenge Rookie

    Nov 28, 2003
    8
    THE Steve Mitchell? I just don't see Paul big-leagueing THE Steve Mitchell. I happen to know Paul was a huuuuuuge fan of his music.

    "I'm a joker
    I'm a smoker
    I'm a midnight toker"


    Man, there wasn't a day we weren't cruising down the OC Toll Road and he wasn't jamming a little Steve Mitchell.

    Oh, what's that. Steve Miller you say? My bad.

    Who is Steve Mitchell?

    WAR I'VE HEARD BORIS, RANDY, AND HANS TALK ABOUT PMUM BUT NEVER ABOUT STEVE MILLER!!!
     
  6. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    To say a 360CS doesn't *need* a wing is to say that a Viper doesn't *need* more power. Undertray and diffuser areas are woefully inadequate in creating *large* amounts of downforce for street cars as they have to meet stringent road height requirements.
     
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  8. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    Jon-

    First off, whether you like it or not, that is the FTD I got at Laguna in my car. That isn't debatable. I was consistently in the 1.41.xx all day with two 1.40.xx and one 1.39.xx when I had minimal traffic. I was in the blue group on day one, and switched to the red group on day two after lunch. The blue groups were a parking lot, and the red group was not much better. My times would literally rise 5 seconds a lap due to traffic- a 355 had significantly less power than the park-it-in-the-corner-and-stomp-on-the-gas-in-the-straights cars out there.

    I'm sorry to hear you were not as fast as you thought you were vs. a Cup car or whatever other Porsche you compared your car to, but that really isn't on topic. The only reason why I bothered to bring up John Ruther as an example is because I remember him running with the PCA last year at the track we're talking about. I'm not a PCA member but from what I hear he's known in the PCA club racing circles.

    As far as being off topic though, I also know several G-A and GAC teams that could use some pay drivers, although I have neither the cash or the time for those series. I race enduro karts which requires a lot less cash outlay.

    Planet Earth? Didn't you buy one of their cars? I crewed for King for a couple of races in GAC- when Mike and Bob were running the car which PEM later bought. That thing had seen far, far better days.

    OT Challenge-

    THE OT Challenge? The same one that was going to give me and JS a discount just to run the thing? Sorry your little track event didn't interest us enough to go. The only one of that type I'm remotely interested in running is OLoA. It's a good thing for both of us since we're both blowhards with strong opinions and getting along with you left coasters would be the farthest from our minds. I'm sure your event is doing well for all the west coast people who can't stomach the thought of doing One Lap. I guess you can go and b!tch about me at CC.com now...

    As for who Steve Mitchell is, it's okay you don't know him- just like there are others in this world who don't know who PMUM is either- not a big deal. Hell, I barely knew PMUM myself although from what I recollect he wasn't anywhere near as big an ass as his friends here seem to be. I remember him being far more down-to-earth than you people say.

    Either way, it's about as far off topic as you can get. You're more than welcome to flame away at me via PM but to be honest I really don't care.

    Mr. Payne-

    I didn't mention the CS. However, the same principles would probably apply- setting up the car is very important. The N-GT cars on my friend's team are set up with huge amounts of rebound dampening- the chassis drops to the bumpstops and pretty much stays there the entire race in order to maximize the aero effect- and after the race, at tech, the car settles back up to it's original ride height. But the CS definitely has no excuse for not matching my laptimes.

    You say the undertray and diffuser are "woefully inadequate" on the 360. Yet, they are a significant upgrade over the 355- to the point the 355's design can be construed as being woefully inadequate (hence the rear wing on the Challenge spec). Is this something you've tested yourself or is this an opinion, because I honestly do not know for sure one way or another. All I am doing is deducing how much the effect is by the specifications the car runs in all forms.

    Now correct me if I'm wrong (and many people here on this thread seem to do so without regard to either tact or manners or even relevance) but the 360C does not run a wing, whereas the last specification of the 355C does. That alone would indicate to me the 360C generates a lot more aero downforce than the 355C and is more balanced front/rear aerodynamically. Since there are only two turns at Laguna that are not at speed (T2 and T11) I think that's a big difference. As for our on-topic discussion about a stock 360- I think ride height can be changed rather easily on the 360... easily enough to make it an adjustment worth doing if you are going for a good laptime at Laguna. After all, it's a $200+K car so a few dollars in prepping it would only be prudent.
     
  9. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
    Full Name:
    Jon K.
    Show me in car at the next event you do and I'll believe it until then it's just "internet" talk.

    On the issue of the 360 C not needing a wing nothing could be further from the truth. The topic has been debated to the hilt among Challenge drivers.

    I am sure you are aware that 12 of them ended up either in the wall or in the dirt with bad damage at the first weekend at Homestead back in 2000. The car badly needs a wing but FNA refused to grant one to the Challenge Series because it wold make all their marketing about the street car's advanced aero package.

    I have driven a 360 C and it doesn't like mistakes that require feathering the throttle to make corrections or adjustments in a corner. Go to any FCA track event and the ratio of spins and off course excursions between 355 C's and 360 C's is probably 10 to 1.

    The aero package was a great idea for a street car but a lousy one for a race car and the Challenge drivers petitioned FNA for two years to get a wing. FNA said no.

    What's the first thing they did on the 360 GT..........stick a huge wing on it. What's the first thing they did to the 2 or 3 SGS 360's....put a wing on it.

    The car is extremely unstable at 10/10ths when small mistakes are made.

    I think you are confusing King Motorsports with SpeedSource. I am not aware that PEM bought any cars from King but I culd be wrong. PEM bought two of Speedsources GSII Porsches.

    Maybe your are referring to the Type R or the GSRs they also ran, don't know where they sourced those. All three STII Acuras (a fellow racer friend of mine bought the other two) were built by PEM.

    The Acura I bought was the last one built and has only 1 1/2 seasons on it. It was their rental car.

    Jon
     
  10. argtv7

    argtv7 Rookie

    Apr 7, 2004
    23
    Sonoma, CA
    Full Name:
    Brad
    I was at all 3 days at Laguna last week (as an instructor/coach). I have driven 360 Challenge cars there, on slicks, and last week I drove two 360s (standard issue) and two 360 Challenge Stradales. My lap time (prior event) in a 360 Challenge was 1:40 (with a soft-pedal past the sound booth on a 92 db weekend). That was in the same car that qualified (and finished) 3rd last week at 1:37. I think that if you absolutely NAILED a lap in a stock 360, you'd be close to 1:43. I didn't, however, ride with anybody that "nailed" a lap. Most lifted (or braked) in turn one.
     
  11. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne

    Someone that actually has the experience we need!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you.
     
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  13. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    Thank you for hands on aero experience!!!! :)
     
  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    53,199
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I went flat through 1 all week and could only do a 1:46. I also know I gained much time on the stock CS cars in the Red group elsewhere on the track. I think 1:43 is possible, but maybe take one of those rare 0.01% drivers, like maybe the Porsche factory guys.
     
  15. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
    Honorary

    Dec 1, 2003
    438
    No longer here
    Rob,

    I've found a few things which may provide some reference points for TWS:

    2001: Fastest 355 qualifier, 2.6 mile configuration: Philip Shearer, 1:34.938
    Fastest 360 qualifier, Jim McCormick, 1:29.476
    Steve Earle (for reference in 360) 1:29.631

    1998: Used the 1.8 mile course:
    Fastest race lap, Tom Papadopoulos, 355, 1.11.450
    Fastest qualifier, Kevin Crowder, 355, 1.11.517

    Perhaps you can draw some conclusions from all this.

    I will also note that some of the "facts" presented earlier in this thread about wings on 360s, 360 GTs, 360 SGS cars, and "Challenge driver petitions", what happened at Homestead, what FNA thinks, and how the slightest mistake in a 360 GT will break the car loose are interesting, but not correct.
     
  16. redcar1

    redcar1 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    625
    austin, tx
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Could the 2.6mile 2001 times be from TMS, Texas Motor Speedway at Ft. Worth, and not Texas World Speedway at College Station?

    Maybe the 2.9 at TWS, which used more of the oval??

    Mark McKenzie
     
  17. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
    Honorary

    Dec 1, 2003
    438
    No longer here
    Mark,

    Whoops...I dug out "Texas" and forgot that 2001 was TMS, not TWS. Thanks for catching my mistake.

    (Old Guy, with the standard-issue failing memory old guys get)
     
  18. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
    Honorary

    Dec 1, 2003
    438
    No longer here
    Rob,

    OK, a search turns up two other times the Challenge ran at Texas World Speedway, neither exactly what you wanted:

    1995, with IMSA (1.9 mile configuration) Ferrari 355
    Peter Sachs, 355, 1.10.191 Fastest race lap

    1996 (1.9 mile configuration) Ferrari 355s
    Paul Frame, fastest race lap, 1.08.772
    Steve Earle's fastest race lap 1.09.654

    OG
     
  19. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    53,199
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    Thanks OG.

    They don't run the 1.9 anymore because the old T3-4 oval is too rough.

    Those are great 1.8 times though. Usually Harrison Williams in his T1 355 run about 1:14. We run about 1:21-1:22 in the Spec. RX7's.
     
  20. pig4bill

    pig4bill Karting

    Dec 24, 2003
    59
    If the Viper Comp Coupe was so overly competitive last year, and was the primary reason for Mumford's great showings in his two races, where were all the other Vipers in those races? Why were they back at mid-pack? Weren't they overly competitive too?

    And by what logic do you figure the Viper is not as competitive this year because Mumford was not a great driver last year? Could it possibly be they are not winning this year because Mumford isn't driving one??
     
  21. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
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    Payne
    Actually, they were highly competitive in the races that they raced last year. Some incidents soured their showing though.
     
  22. pig4bill

    pig4bill Karting

    Dec 24, 2003
    59
    Not including Mumford, best finishes last year for Vipers:
    Sebring - 24th
    Mosport - no entry
    Lime Rock(first race) - 15th
    Lime Rock(second race) - DNS
    Road Atlanta(first stop) - 11th
    Sears Point - 17th
    Road America - 13th
    Laguna Seca - 7th
    Road Atlanta(second stop) - 5th
    Puerto Rico - 13th

    That's "highly competitive"? For the entire season, none of the non-Mumford Vipers had a podium finish. Mumford ran 2 races and finished 3rd and 1st, both on the podium. What are you missing here? Ray Charles could see Mumford was one hell of a race driver.
     
  23. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 3, 2001
    11,237
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Here's Mumford at his first race where he got third. This is the end of the race, which only lasts a hair over 9 minutes. As for his pit crew, that was just Erik Messley. You can serach for him on google, or for EMI Racing.

    His VCC was detuned to run in the Speed Challenge Series. And his GTS, which is still out there, is even more powerful, but isn't a Comp Coupe.

    http://www.isleptwithyourgirlfriend.com/mumford/PMumford-SpeedGT.wmv
    please... right-click, save target as
    9m16s, 35mb in size.

    Anyways.. enjoy. It's on topic, so I thought I'd throw it out there.
     
  24. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
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    Payne
    Comp Coupes only had serious efforts in the last 4 races.

    At Road America a crash near the very end knocked out 3 Vipers. At Seca a Viper held 3rd-4th position for nearly the entire race entire a garbeled corner made him lose a few positions. Road Atlanta.....5th is VERY good for a privateer effort. Puerto Rico, only one Viper comp coupe. Not a top tier driver.
     
  25. pig4bill

    pig4bill Karting

    Dec 24, 2003
    59
    Yes, and Mumford was ahead of all of them when it happened, so they likely would not have podiumed there either.

    If the race had been shorter, he would've done better. Is that what you're saying? If my aunt had gonads, she'd be my uncle. BTW, it wasn't one "garbled corner" that made him lose a few positions. He was falling back fast the last couple of laps. So as long as we're playing the "if" game, if the race had been a few laps longer, he would've lost another half-dozen positions.

    5th is VERY good for a privateer? Then what what is 1st and 3rd for the privateer Mumford?
     
  26. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
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    Payne
    Umm, I was at that race.....and no, it didn't happen like that.

    And where did I say that Mumford wasn't an *EXCELLENT* driver? I do think he is a fantastic driver, I just think the Comp Coupe was highly competitive as well. And I'm sure if Bill Auberlen or Phil McClure were in the Comp Coupes last season we would have seen more podiums. You don't think the CC was highly competitive last year?
     
  27. callaides

    callaides Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2004
    782
    Detroit, MI
    I'm pretty sure [the Viper Competition Coupes] were mandated to have further restrictions set up before the start of the season. Winning isn't even in the question this year...merely placing in some races with some consistency would be an improvement -- so no, I do not believe an exceptional driver would make a difference this year, but like I said, that's just me, and I'm no expert.
     
  28. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    Actually, Archer did win a race......but the top 8 cars are so evenly matched this year it almost hurts to watch.
     

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