IMO Debate is good.. disrespecting others, not so much.. I am sure he will say 'why' but, I think that once Dave has filed his IP rights he should welcome intelligent discussions on the subject. Dave has done his homework.. therefore he should have the ability to shoot arguments down in flames... end of story. I installed the gold kit and the car is markedly improved (and it ran fine before). I had the same questions as Ernie at the time, but put my faith in Dave's work... so far I am not disappointed. Don't fault Ernie for asking the hard questions, that's how we all learn. Above all though, we must be respectful and recognize the hard work and efforts of others .
I'm all for DIY. I enjoy the challenge and the feeling of satisfaction gained by doing something outside of my comfort zone. That said, why anyone would take on the level of work involved in opening all of the important electric and electronic connectors on the car to replace them with an untried, unproven, unsupported, undocumented system for the sake of $1000 +/- over a painstakingly developed kit is beyond me. One bad connection to an engine ECU could spell disaster and could result, quite literally, in the technical write-off of a car. From what I've read on the various pin kit threads there is quite serious commitment required on the part of the DIY'r to install Dave's kit. I suspect we're talking 100 hours or more. I don't understand why anyone would want to take on that job without support for what is a relatively small differential in cost on the materials, bearing in mind the labour input required. When you measure the risks, the labour time against the potential rewards of Ernie's proposal over Dave's kit it's just daft. Daft! If Ernie was in a position to say that he'd done a full pin upgrade and it had proven it to be a a success and he'd documented the procedure then, and only then might have been the time to publish (and only if he had achieved it without help and guidance from Dave). Creating this thread when he did, using the emotive language that he did was, in my opinion, shockingly bad form and the antithesis of what this forum is all about. For information:- I have had no business dealings with Dave, but I hope that by the time my 360 starts to display the kind of symptoms suffered by the earlier models that he will have crafted a solution for me and I look forward to doing business with him then.
I do not find this thread interesting in the least......rather I am totally shocked at your post Ernie. If you are jealous and feel that you need to puff yourself up with internet knowledge then so be it, but to step on Dave to elevate yourself is totally unjustified. I have a lot of professional and educational credentials after being envolved with race cars for 46 years. In our 7 year friendship Dave has been one of the best engineers I've had the pleasure of meeting, and the time he invests in any project is down right astounding because he leaves no stone unturned. Dave has almost as many years in this game as I do and his technical "hands on" experience is hard to match..and even more so as it relates to his passion(the Ferrari marque). Ernie, would you like to tell everyone just exactly what your level of expertise is....better yet, how have you supported yourself and family all these years? Maybe someone would like to take a pot shot at your livelihood.
I don't know Dave and I don't know Ernie. But my business is automotive electronics design/manufacturing and that is something I do know. With that said: Ernie is correct that mixing tin and gold is not as reliable as tin and tin together in an environment where fretting can occur. Gold/gold is better, then tin/tin, then gold/tin. But, that is only one part of the equation. I've got millions and millions of crimp connections out in the field. Quite a lot of them are gold/tin. We always shoot for gold/gold, but that's not always feasible, and parts get discontinued or replaced, and RoHS threw a wrench into the mix and changed a lot of what was available. So the end result is we have a lot of gold/tin out there. I've never ever had a failure due to this in 11 years. I have had failures with connectors and wires. So far, in every case, it is the crimp that fails. I don't mean the actual metal terminal, I mean the action of using a crimper to attach a terminal to a wire produced a sub-par crimp that ended up failing. When we started out, I bought crimpers for $25 because $300-800+ for a crimper was highway robbery. Or so I thought. When I bought the $300-800+ crimper, I realized it was worth every penny. There is a ton of engineering in a good crimp made by a good crimper. There are lots of papers out there on what makes for a good crimp along with cut away diagrams showing correct and incorrect crimps. The crap you buy at Radio Shack may be OK for banging in a nail, or crimping christmas tree lights, but I wouldn't use it for automotive use. I always buy Molex brand (since I use Molex terminals), but Pressmaster and Excelite make some good stuff too. The bottom line is that crimp tools is one area where you definitely get what you pay for. I have no idea what kind of crimp tool SRI uses, but if the kit includes a good one, it's definitely not comparable to the one Ernie posted a pic of. Also, I am familiar with fretting corrosion, and from a quick look of the pics on the SRI website, the damage they show is not fretting corrosion, so if their kit addresses the type of damage they show, then it's not about fretting and making it about fretting seems a bit disingenuous to the actual problem being addressed. The other part of connector corrosion is contact design and contact pressure. There are terminals designed to minimize fretting corrosion, and higher pressure contacts/housings make a big difference too.
When I built my own stereos, I would always solder the wires in the crimp--that is use the crimp as a mechanical connector and then add solder to become the electrical connector. Is there a reason that these connectors are not soldered to the wires (with or without the mechanical crimping) ?
Yes, vibration will cause metal fatigue/work hardening at the point where the solder ends and the wire will fracture. Sometimes this happens without breaking the insulation so its a hard fault to find, but usually I've found the whole wire broken. Its worthy of note that on the space shuttle only crimp joints are specified, or at least they used to be. On a stereo I doubt it would be a problem but there is still some work hardening due to current flow. When I was doing shock actuator repairs I had to solder the wire ends because I had to carefully remove the ends and reuse them because no amount of searching provided a source for new ones. The ends that go into the connectors for the shock actuators are unique in that they go into the connector from the front.
WOW chatters are paying $1300 for a terminal kit! I usually install the termianls for free! Only in the USA!
Dude... and your selling a brake assist pump shaft for a Testarossa for $900.00 ???? Aren't you calling the kettle black.. and its not $1,300.00 for teminals.. there is alot more involved to the kit.. worth every penny.. Let us know who makes those shafts for you and how much they cost.. ?? R
The tr vacuum pumps are for my own use, if a tr owner needs one and I have them in stock I will sell it to them. Termials are 88 cents each and the tools are under $100 here in Canada. If its worth every penny to you then I'm happy for you.
You may want to check out the website and the kit first before you throw your worthless two cents into the rink. Kai
Soldering the crimps is a common thing to do, but definitely a recipe for disaster. In short, the solder cannot flex - it will flex a few times then break. Crimps will accept the flexing of the wire for a much longer time (orders of magnitude). For something like a car stereo, not that big of a deal. But there are whole books on crimping for things like the aerospace industry where obviously it's a bit more critical
Really.. I think you use them no doubt.. But you also stock them so a TR owner does not have to spend $3,700.00 or so for a new pump.. Still curious as to how much is your cost on the shaft you have made? Your thought being that people would rather spend $900.00 or so vs. spending $3,700.00? Obviously you know nothing about the SRI Gold Kit but your making comments.. Lets see how you feel when Ernie comes up with a better solution to your shafts that your selling.. telling fellow members how your ripping them off.. What Ernie is doing is not right.. R
I still think the SRI kit provides a good value. Research and engineering, etc. Above I tried to allude to the value also in someone who is willing to try several different sources of the gold connectors, then to purchase in quantity. At the quantities listed the warehousing of the first batch will be a long time and to recoup the costs on those parts may be years. I know from personal experience that Dave Helms has been very generous with his time and knowledge. He has gotten me out of a couple tough spots and been an invaluable resource. I have purchased a number of his kits for my car and am estatic that someone provides well organized kits. The time he saved me in not having to call all over to find the various sizes of hose I needed are savings in my pocket. I feel indebted for the kindness and assistance I have received and don't know how to really let Dave know or repay him. Maybe someone will PM me and give a suggestion like his favorite wine or ? Even a nice bottle of wine can't express my gratitude for what he does for me and the community. I didn't see what everyone else saw when this thread started and I apologize if my entry was insensitive in any way.
No Troy, what is poor taste is a comment, such as was made, regarding something the poster knows nothing about, what is provided in an SRI kit. Taken at face value the statement might have some degree of accuracy but the intent was to belittle others while elevating ones self... THAT is poor taste but a common problem with the 'written' word, its hard to determine 'intent' from a short statement. I applaud anyone willing to gamble and make that shaft, I turned both it and the TR engine drive shaft down in shear terror. Make a better shaft that wont break, for either application and they will destroy either valves when the pump seizes of a complete gearbox when that shaft doesn't shear. They are both "Fusible Links" in a system and both require insane amounts of engineering to design into them a break point based on aged components downstream of them. I have no knowledge of the parts being spoken of. If that engineering was done and there is supporting evidence to the same, Kudos'! If not, ones product liability insurance premiums best be paid up! No Product Liability Insurance while making and selling parts.... Why do folks think it costs so much to do this Right? A week after 9/11 product liability tripled... Shlt always rolls downhill and insurance companies DO NOT loose money, someone always pays. Mitch, Dave and Mike are spot on in their reply, solder is a short term repair when vibration is a factor. Look at all the 348 door pin connections folks use to solder, they are all breaking off clean now. Keeping everything flexible is an absolute requirement and one of the design factors in the boots I chose for our kits. How many different boots are available that look exactly the same as the ones I choose? Literally I had to throw away many hundreds as soon as they were proven to be a problem as they look IDENTICAL to one another. Mike, "" But, that is only one part of the equation. "" Absolutely correct, one of MANY facets and factors to be looked at. Mike makes many very good points and being in the business they are based on Earned Knowledge. Basing an argument on a single data point is worthless! The data Erine based his arguments on is Old knowledge and has circulated the Net for years... it is but one data point to be considered in a whole design. In a perfect world I would have had all the sensors made to my design and gold plated those contacts as well.... that would assure we would never fix a single car. One must choose their battles and make concessions and find a point where... a planned life span of decades will have to be good enough for now. I said it once and I will say it again... study the Periodic Tables if one is concerned. Dirk, Make that a LOOOOG time, I never expect to see a payback on the things we have done, I hoped to but will not. They were done to prove a point to the industry, my daughter, my new Grasshopper GOG and to fulfill a promise I made to a dear friend and Mondial owner who is no longer with us. My hope is one day Niki might realize benefits of what we have done with the Hoses, Gold Kits and such but I surely wont last long enough to see it. If I can leave with 2 young people that have complete knowledge of, and the ability to, properly tune and adjust a 6 carb Daytona and then jump right into a FUBAR'd Motronic system and fix it right........ THEN I have done my job correctly and fulfilled the promises I made to the Gentlemen that taught me. The lesson being taught to the youngins' is we don't have to accept things as they are. We CAN fix them if someone really wants to, has the drive to do it and can afford to take on projects such as these. I fault no one for trying to do things in an affordable manner, never have, never will. Rest assured, NO ONE can stretch a nickel as far as I, my family can attest to that! When there is firm science and research to prove it is the wrong direction I state so but this is the NET..... no ones opinion should be taken at face value and considered fact, it should be looked at as one opinion in an equation. The only time I have a problem is when one suggests others follow their actions when there is data to support those actions are incorrect.
"The Short Bus" is a term that refers to mentally and physically challenged kids. I know of a few members on this board with children that fall into this catagory and can assure you they would find this as poor taste.
Political correctness makes me gag as much as the next guy but I make a reservation for parents and kids that will go through the rest of their lives with this struggle. I'll shut up now.
O.K. Where to start. First I consider both Dave and Ernie friends. I currently run Dave's GCK in my 348 and I have found it is a top notch system that has eliminated all of my CEL's and made the car run great. Ernie has been there for me and other members here for a very long time. His insight and posts helping members of this forum go way back. He has always been a phone call away for me, come to think of it so has Dave. He spent a lot of his time on the phone with me recently working out a hose issue and I know his time is valuable. Now, do I think Ernie messed up posting what he found and thought would be helpful?.....Yes. However, I believe even though he knew there would be outcry he was simply trying to reduce costs. He was trying to help, miss-guided, but he trying. I know him like many others here and he is not someone who thinks in terms of hurting others. That being said. If I was in need of gold connectors I would still go with the helms kit do to the fact its been tested and packaged well and has rave reviews. I like things simple and complete. I hope this all gets worked out. I know there is time and money involved and maybe a little bit of thought should have gone into this before posting this thread. Don't want to get flamed, just hate to see this here at FChat. --Mike
I am Positive we can all agree on your point. I know Rick plenty well enough to know that an insult of that nature was surely not the intent, he is a Gentleman. In our region it is more often reserved for disruptive kids, I learned something new and thank you for that. No reason to shut up, everyone is due their opinion and should be free to post it. I now see another view and better understand your comment, though it doesnt excuse the one that led to this. After this thread I am all done with PC, it only invites future and further attacks. I enjoy, and most always learn from lively debates on a given subject but this Village Idiot is now sporting a set of chompers for those looking for a battle... I have had enough of that foolishness from nameless people on the Net.
If any members are offended, i certainly apologize. As Dave notes, it was a response to an even more tasteless post in this thread which only demonstrated the poster's lack of comprehension of the debate - not to mention the lack of social skills required to make further inflammatory remarks and slight the US all at the same time. This thread just brings out the worst in everyone. I wish a mod would lock it.
