STOP!!!! (New Brembo brakes)

$6000.00---must be made of GOLD

I spent a lot of time talking with Eric Dahl over the past year. He even quoted to me a set of BREMBO Parking brakes (from a 360) to install on my car. Since he left however, Brembo has refused to honor the quote and were actually quite rude to me on the phone---therefore I refuse to do business with them and recommend that if there is ANY other alternative---take it...
(ps--Eric knows about this and even tried to help out)

That being said----designing a new brake set should include larger rotors as well as better calipers. To do your own takes a lot of engineering skills but can be done for about 3000 (FOR ALL 4 CORNERS) !!!!!!

Anyone that has drived a 911 or 930 knows how awesome the brakes on those cars work----believe me--my 308 brakes blow those away----

Anyone that is around here is more than welcome to drive the car to see.

BTW---calipers are just blocks of aluminum with stainless cups in them--Outlaw, AP, Brembo, Wilwood, Bear---they are all virtually identicle. Where they differ is in the mounting kits they provide.

 

Atlantaman,

You are right, Brembo is awfully proud of their parts (as are Ferrari), and they charge ridiculous prices for the bits. The 308 kit calipers are close to $1000 retail each, and the discs are at least $350 ea, add that Brembo wants about $500 each for additional parking calipers like the 360 and a rear kit adds up really fast. The bean counters decided that not enough 308 owners would spend that kind of money aftermarket to justify the expense of production.

However, I have to disagree about all calipers being the same. There is a reason that Ferrari, Porsche, mercedes, Lamborghini, Ford, Aston Martin, Audi ...etc... use Brembos. Look at the upright castings under all 355, 360 and 996 Porsches, you will find the Brembo logo, as they manufacture, assemble and ship the complete corner suspension assemblies to these companies.
And until the other manufacturers you mention (other than AP, who is owned by Brembo) win at F1, Champcar, FIA GT or any other top level racing, Brembo will continue to be considered the best.

The Bear brakes are actually Alcon units out of the UK, or PBR unbits from Australia. Bear simnply packages them, they dont design calipers.

Caliper design and technology is far from easy. Wilwood and Outlaw make great dirt track calipers, but they dont begin to have the design, testing and development capabilities of Brembo. I dont expect Outlaw to be developing a Brembo/Ferrari CCM type caliper and disc package anytime soon. Comparing these companies is like saying that an old vw bug is the same as a new Mercedes because they both have wheels.

A caliper is like anything else, it needs to be properly engineered, made from the right materials, and tested and developed for strength, capability and durability. Wilwood, Outlaw, etc are not building calipers or rotors for any OE manufacturers because they could not possibly meet the criteria. Nor could they build high level calipers from MMC, aluminum-berylium, etc. for top level racing.

Anyway, enough of a bla bla sermon. Hell, I dont even work for Brembo anymore.
But the point is that the Brembo high performance aftermarket equipment is way too expensive. It kept my hands tied and had me wishing I had more freedom to develop a wider range of parts while I was there.
Sounds like you have developed a very capable system for your car. I am glad to see that there are people out there who are modifying the 308 to reach modern performance levels.
Keep up the updates as you go.
Eric

 

The biggest problem with Brembos is -- after driving the EVO (with Brembo calipers that wouldn't even fit inside a Ferrari rim), the ATEs on the 328 and the Alfa feel like mush.

Be careful if you upgrade your Ferrari, and then take a ride in your SUV -- you can get spoiled by really really good brakes.

 

Outlaw brakes are standard equipment on all PANOZ cars--- They are 100% the quality of Brembo and about 125.00 each corner..

They have worked flawlessly for 1.5 yrs on my car and are the #1 choice on danm near ALL circle track and sprint cars.

The ONLY advantace Brembo has is the $$$$ to market the product more and the engineering to design adapter kits more easily.

So-what if Brembo wins a lot of races---WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING RACING CALIPERS--- The mechanics of hydraulics is quite simple

Also-The 12.25" rotors I run are about 100 each and the custom hub hats are about 200 each.
all parts total---about 1800.00--labor and bracket making time ~30 hours.

 

atlantaman..

Could you post some more info like part #'s and where you got the stuff for you car.

Did you make the adapter pieces yourself? While I don't have the tools to do this, my neighbor does (he's got a CNC Plasma cutter in his garage!!!!) and a milling machine.

I'd really like to hear more about what options I have for my car. PM me if you like.

Thanks

Sean

 

So, what would your idea of the ultimate set-up?

I'm getting ready to do something to the brakes on my QV*.OK, I've been getting ready for about 2 years, but I think I'm pretty close now. I already bought a couple pairs of brembo slotted rotors 355x32 and 332x32 (I have 18" wheels) and made hats to mount them, but I got interrupted and never picked the calipers. I was planning to use a simple mechanical caliper for the parking brake, maybe a wilwood because they're pretty cheap and not very important. But for the real calipers I want something decent. I've been leaning toward brembo 4 piston front and rear, although the stoptech copies are tempting. I haven't gotten as far as piston size cals yet. Thoughts? Reasonable plan? Better Ideas?

 

Brake bias to the rear in wet conditions, more front bias in the rain is a big mistake.

 

I'm going to have to jump in on the rear bias is bad side. That will cause to rears to lock and the back end will try to step out. It seems to me much more likely that Atlantaman suffered from mismatched pads causing the rear to lock and walk out than a bias causing inadaquate braking in the rear causing it to come around. I say to for a couple reasons, but the most important is that the back tires don't steer, they must follow the front...that is unless they have broken traction then they are free to do whatever they want. Adding more braking to the front reduces the % braking at the rear and therefore reduces the chance or loosing the rear under braking. It has to be the pads on the back just worked much better than the front pads under those conditions which effectively moved the brake bias to the rear locking the wheels.

 

Sorry you guys are wrong. Braking is all about control and the last thing you want is the rears locking ... ask a racing driver what they do when it rains.

Putting more on the front will cause the fronts to lock ... but only if you are a d!ckhead. Last time I looked racing drivers know how to drive and thus control the brake pedal like we all should ... and I used to when I raced.

Thus again control is what you are after and locking rears is the best way to put the car in the sand pit and get yourself wet (as you walk back to the pits ).

In the dry you increase the rear bias to get the most out of your braking package ...

That is what I have always understood ... anyway. Please do not demonstrate your theories unless in a really safe area ... and also read mk_e's reply which states exactly the same reason for Atlantaman spin as I said ... miss-matched pads ... ie. road ones on the back that grabbed while the front ones were still cold and ineffective.

Pete

 

OK I'll chime in.
I agree with Mark and others that mis-matched pads could have been a factor that caused a spin in the wet from the rears locking. The bias issue is where I have to disagree. In wet conditions you adjust MORE BIAS TO THE REAR. PERIOD. What you forgot to consider is load/weight transfer or lack there of in the wet. You simply can't brake hard enough in wet conditions to transfer the same weight to the front that you can in the dry. Therefore, you bias more to the rear because they are carrying more weight than usual. Throw the static weights out the window and consider the dynamics. You just can't fight physics. Simple rule is half turn to the rear and continue this adjustment until the rear gets nervous then back off a tick. I've raced and won a lot of races in the rain. I don't know anyone fast who bias' to the front in wet conditions. As a side note, a balanced car in the dry will remain so in the wet. Some guys unhook sway bars and do all kinds of goofy stuff thinking they have it figured. I generally backed off the low speed bump settings a click or two in the rear shocks to aid in putting down power. Same reason as biasing to the rear. Lack of load transfer from lack of grip. Softening the slow speed bump on triple adjustable shocks allows you to squat the rear to compensate for the lack of grip and improves forward bite and traction a ton.
Being that Atlantaman's spin was in a street car, operating (probably) nowhere near the cars limits and with possibly mis-matched pad compounds this very well could have caused his spin. If it were on the track with a proper designed and tested brake set up, I would be pointing the finger at bias for sure.

Schools out.....

John

 

Hmmm, interesting and your theory makes a lot of sense ... I must say I would be very nervous about putting more rear brake on in the rain.

The way I see it is that I would want to reduce rear brake ... which when you are sitting in the car (during a race) the only option is to move the bias forward.

But like I said your comments make sense ... I would just be sh!tting bricks about doing it.

Pete
ps: I also used to race, but only had a balance bar that could be adjusted in the pits ... not a fan of having too many things to play with, and most of my racing was short sprint races anyway.

 

Gents,

I too am thinking seriously about upgrading the brakes. So far, if my understanding is correct, the brembo kit costs about 2400, requires 16 inch wheels and has 312mm diameter rotors.

If we move out to a 17 inch wheel, I am curious as to what others have been able to fit. Will some of the later, i.e. 355 brakes work??

I am thinking that the larger the rotor - the better the mechanical advantage will be and that this will provide better controlability and feel.

I am aware that larger rotors have a slight disadvantage in unsprung weight and rotational inertia but feel that the increased leverage and controllability are very likely to overcome the disadvantages.

Obviously, the greater the pressure that can be aplied to the pads, (with more and bigger piston surface area), will proportionately decrease the pedal effort, this is good up to the point where the pedal is too sensitive for good controll.

In looking at trying to increase the disc size, I am looking at bigger and bigger wheels to provide clearance for the bigger discs and calipers. My gues is that going to 18 inch or bigger wheels will necessitate the use of lower and lower porfile tires, which will in turn have compromise issues: e.g. decreased compliance with very short sidewalls, (we need to keep the overall diameter close to stock for tire clearance issues, speedometer calibration and issues regarding the raising of the center of gravity. If the car is track only, we can sacrifice a lot, but most uf us want and need a dual purpose rocket.

So where is the best compromise??

What have others done successfully, or had problems with??

With keen interest and a significant ignorance,
i remain,
chris

 

Spang308 is the winner!
Exactly what you do (in a race car where you want absolute max 4 wheel braking ability) in the rain and for the exact reasons stated.
In a race you drive as close to 100% on lateral adhesion as you possibly can, which can lead to spinouts and likewise, you push the limits on rear braking.
Not necessarily recommended for a street car...

 

Yes I agree completely that more rear bias can be used in wet condtions. My point was that having too little rear bias for whatever reason, will not cause a spin. It is in fact a stable condition and the way that way OEM cars are delivered. If the rear is loose on the brakes then there is too much rear bias. So adding larger front brakes might actually increase your stopping distance if it is not setup right because you will not be getting everything you can from the rears, but it will not cause the rear to slide when braking.

 

Hi Mke,

The ultimate brake system for a 308? That would depend on its intended use and individual preference.

Given the discs and bells you have already got, (355, 332 x 32) which I think are actually too much disc for the car. (They have more thermal capacity and more rotational and unsprung weight than is needed.)

The Stop tech calipers are a very good choice. The stop tech calipers actually have a few advantages over the Brembo F40-F50 calipers they are copied from. The Stop tech calipers are made from squeeze forged aluminum blanks, the Brembos are cast. The Stop tech units have less deflection per pressure, and have a better deflection curve over the operating temperature range.The Stop tech calipers are available with a wider range af piston sizes as well.
You are going to need the S-T40 series calipers as you have chosen a 32mm thick disc for the rear, which is very unusual and thick. Most calipers designed for the rear of cars are made for much thinner discs.

I would choose piston sizes of 34/38mm front and 32/36mm rear. This will give you a firm and easy to modulate pedal with the 308's pedal and booster ratios.
The Wilwood spot caliper will be fine as a parking brake, it is a cost-effective choice. The Stop techs are also pretty cost effective compared to similar calipers.

Pad choice is going to be a tough call for this system. You have changed the mechanical balance and braking torque so much, you may have to experiment to find the right ones. The guys at Stop tech and Porterfield can help.

Hope that helps.
Eric

 

Okay looks like I am wrong regarding adjusting your brake bias towards the front during a wet RACE ... cool don't mind being wrong. I also have to admit I am always one for control first, amount of brake second ... used to rain a lot in New Zealand and rain hard ... thus more worried about staying on the black stuff.

As mk_e has pointed out though, there is nothing wrong with putting larger brakes on the front of any car and leaving the rear standard (as long as you make pad material adjustments if necessary). All this will do is INCREASE your front bias (assuming master cylinders are right sizes, etc.) ... which will NOT cause your car to lock the rears in the rain.

About time for some installation pictures Steve

Pete

 

Man I hope the rims you finally get are a little straighter than your photochop ... thought I had had one to many beers with that one

Otherwise nice looking rims ... always been a fan of the 3 piece style.

Pete

 

Eric,
That's what I get I get for picking discs that will fill the wheel and look good instead of thinking and just assumed that it would be better to be over-braked than under. And since I've had all 4 glowing pretty well after a spirited drive, I just though all 4 should get bigger by about the same %. I also thought I was picking 360ish rotors, it sound like maybe I wasn't.....would I be better off put them on ebay and get smaller ones? I should mension that the car is over 500 hp so it builds speed pretty quickly and the tires are quite wide (for a 308 anyway) with 225/40-18 front and 285/35-18 rear.

Great information, thank you!

Mark

 

Spacers realy depends on the wheels. My front wheels are 8.5 wide with a 46mm offset. They required a 25mm spacer to put them in the right place.

The rears I have are 10.5 wide with 32mm offset and no spacer. That works for the tire, bit the wheel wanted to hit the spring so I moved the loew shock mount in 1.62". It just want to rub the inner wheel well so I might add a thin spacer, maybe 5mm.