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StopTech Brakes

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by mwarrior, Mar 24, 2004.

?

Would you buy a StopTech kit? (after researching the brand)

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Only if other people also wanted one

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. mwarrior

    mwarrior Formula Junior
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    Mar 18, 2004
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    Gagan P
    Ok as most of you know, Brembo and MovIt both make the big brake kits for the F cars, and Brembo's biggest kits are 4piston 14" (355mm) kits.

    I'm not sure how many people have heard of StopTech, but I emailed them about making kits since their list only shows the kit for the 348/355. Heres the response I got:
    "We have new 8,6, and 2 piston calipers coming out in the near future, which will be used on a wide array of current and new vehicles.

    We would also definitely consider making many other Ferrari applications. At this point, we don't have too many solid Ferrari resellers. Since we are always so busy around here, everything is demand driven to some extent. If we have a firm purchase commitment, things get done much more quickly. Generally speaking, we need to sell at least a dozen axles of a given kit to justify the cost of development (engineering hours, test hours, programming, etc.)."


    My guess is that a "front+rear" kit would count as 2 axles of the same kit but I can verify that. My main question is what size would make sense for everybody to get? Brembo as everybody knows has the 355mm kit, so would a 380mm be better? 4piston? or 6 or 8piston? For those of you that havent heard of StopTech, www.stoptech.com they also have a patented bridge design thats supposed to keep the caliper stiffer. I've seen a lot of people use this in the street and racecars too.

    So, who would want one of these? Wait time could be 6months or so because of testing and engineering, but worth it in the end. I could get all those details before confirming.
     
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  3. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    No, Brembo's biggest kits are 380x32 with 4 or 8-piston...
     
  4. mwarrior

    mwarrior Formula Junior
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    My mistake. You're correct. However, those kits are listed for the F40 and special order. I meant 380mm kits for other vehicles as well :) Plus if this does happen, these kits will end up being production for anybody else that wants any.

     
  5. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    "those kits are listed for the F40"

    Sorry, but you didn't specify which Ferrari model you had in mind...
    Anyway I would not be interested in brakes that large for several reasons.
    Like the added weight, and the hideously large wheels and new tires I would have to buy as well to clear this size.
     
  6. mwarrior

    mwarrior Formula Junior
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    Like I said, my mistake :) As for the kits, I definitely understand that, but lately I've seen quite a few people wish that Brembo had bigger kits, and also some people that went with the MovIt 380mm kits for the 360s. As well, the 6 and 8 piston I havent seen listed for anything other than the F40. Instead of the Challenge Brakes, people may want to view this as an option in case they wanted something that isnt yet made in production (meaning tested and researched by the manufacturer) for their vehicle in the size/piston combo that they want.

    Gagan


     
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  8. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    I do a lot of track driving in my F355. Other than fresh fluid and pads that tollerate more heat, the Brembos on the F355 are just fine. If anything, all the rear needs is a little air ducting (NACA duck off the diffuser like on the challenge cars). I am within 2 seconds of the lap record on street tires (not r-compound nor slicks) at the track I drive (TWS), yet as I am getting better, I find myself using less and less brakes. Still a long way to go.

    If I got more into track-only operation, I would only consider a full challenge brake setup.
     
  9. bboxer

    bboxer Formula Junior

    Aug 6, 2001
    612
    I've been talking to Stoptech (neighbors of mine) for quite some time now. They do have a two piece rotor for the 360 (just like Brembo does) and the 348/355 kit has recently been fitted but is not released yet. Products look interesting: both rotors and hats generate mnore airflow than competing ones and run cooler. Caliper deflection is also much less at high pressure. I have seen their NSX and race set ups and they do look pretty impressive. Their handicap is no name recognition like Brembo or AP have.
     
  10. need4speed

    need4speed Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    I saw something very interesting last night on the SPEED Channel. The new show "Sports Car Revolution" or something like that had put a big brake package on one of their project cars. And when they dyno'd the car, they lost, I think it was, 12hp! They said it was because now that the brakes are bigger (even though lighter), the mass is farther away from the center of the axle and thus requires more energy to overcome inertia.

    Is this true? I mean the physics I can understand, but 12HP???!!! Just doesn't seem to compute.
     
  11. mwarrior

    mwarrior Formula Junior
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    Mitch: the less braking as you get more experienced is true in all cases. Unless its hours of continuous(sp) track driving. The pads/fluid of course helps.

    bboxer: They have released the 348/355 kit. The front retails at $2595 and the 4wheel kit retails for $4995. And yes I've seen their rotors for the 360.
    As for name recognition, that is the main thing holding them down. They are moving into a bigger facility for better production. Only thing right now is of course feasibility in research for the kits for the F cars and other makes (I suggested the Murcielagos and Gallardos).

    Thats the reason we need 12 axles for this to work. As a lot of people who've tried both Brembo and StopTech have probable seen, ST is the way to go, and their patented bridge design is always a help for stability.

    need4speed: I honestly dont see how brakes can reduce HP... But thats just me :)
     
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  13. riverflyer

    riverflyer F1 Rookie

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    Mwarrior, I often frequent the roadfly.org bmw board and stoptech is very highly regarded there. There is a sponsor/member, Dave Zeckhausen, who is the resident brake guru and he reccommends stoptech often. He now has a website so you might want to ask him, as he very knowledgeable about brakes and applications. http://www.zeckhausen.com/
     
  14. mwarrior

    mwarrior Formula Junior
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    John: Just checked the site out and its done very nicely. As for StopTech, I am also a dealer, or in the process anyways. The quote I put in my first post is from the actual Sales Rep over at StopTech in response to my question about making brake kits for Ferraris. So the way I'm looking at it, if theres enough people that want a kit for a particular vehicle, StopTech would in fact be the right way to go. Not only because of price, but quality. I would guess that the price would be lower for the first 12 kits as well.

    Gagan
     
  15. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Sep 25, 2002
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    Interesting, what would be available for cars of 18" 360 modena wheels like my 328? The only reason I was going the brembo route was because they are a time and time again proven brand, but the price and said quality interest me. The important consideration for me is to:

    1. Maintain brake balance
    2. Maintain user friendly brakes. (aka the pedal feel allows me to properly use them, this is important since I can't just mash them since I lack ABS)
    3. Maintain parking brake
    4. Be at least 355mm in size with at least 4 pots; BUT be a light design as well. Brembos are *supposedly* a 'lighter then OEM, or as light as' braking system

    I would not mind working with them to develop a system for 328 ABS wheel era cars with 18" wheels. :)
     
  16. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Good company, I would rate them right up there with Brembo, some even said that they are better than Brembo. The only thing is, I wrote to them about 2 weeks ago as well about upgrading the TR's brakes, but they told me that they have nothing for the TRs at this time. Bummer...
     
  17. mwarrior

    mwarrior Formula Junior
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    Anthony: The reason is the same reason I'm posting about interest in the kits. They'll make the kits if its feasible and they see the demand. If theres 12 orders, then that kit would jump to the front of the R&D's list. It all comes down to if theres 12 people with 1 vehicle (or 6people that want full kits I think, I'd have to confirm that), then we can make it happen. That and those 12 people can say "I was the first to have one" ;)

    Omar: I sent the Brembo a rep with your questions, he gets back from vacation tomorrow or Friday so I should have the answers. Now for the StopTech stuff: all 4 of your points are what the StopTech kits usually do best from what I've seen.

    The main thing is finding the amount of people with the same vehicle that are interested in purchasing the brakes so that StopTech can start the R&D into it. A lot of racers have switched to StopTech because of the quality and price reasons, so I dont think it can be all that bad. So for the people that WOULD be interested, post the vehicle you have. Lets get at least 6-10 of the same vehicle maybe they'll let it go at 6 vehicles, 12axles.

    Gagan
     
  18. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Sep 25, 2002
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    Gagan, do you think Stoptech would better suit my needs? I have been reviewing their site and some other people's opinions, and it seems that they are indeed a good alternative. Since you have contact with both brembo and stoptech, can you find out which brake setup is lighter? If they prove to be lighter then, well I am sold for stoptech.

    BTW I will start:

    1988.5 328GTS (later ABS hub design present only in 88.5 and 89 328s) with 18" 360 modena front wheels. (later switching to 512TR fronts)
     
  19. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,314
    Rotational inertia is a little different than linear inertia. In linear inertia, a pound is a pound is a pound. You push on a weight with a pound of force, and it accelerates at 1Gs.

    In rotational inertia (1st moment)the farther away from the axis or rotation, the larger the effect. The bigger the weight the bigger the effect. Put together, you take the product of distance and weight and you have rotational inertia. Take 1 pound at a distance of 12" and it takes 12 inch*pounds to accelerate at 1 radians per second per second. However, take that same 1 pound at 6" and it takes half the force to accelerate in rotation. Put that same 1 pound at 24" and it takes twce as much torque.

    Accelerating a car has two components, linear and rotational. We are all familiar with linear acceleration. F=m*a and all that rot.

    However, the rotational component is A) non-negligible, B) composed of many parts. Everything that has to rotate has to be accelerated in rotation to attain a linear velocity. The energy used to accelerate these components reduces the ability of the engine to accelerate the car. Since all parts other than the wheels and brakes are held constant::

    Moving the rotating mass of the brake rotor from 8" to 9" increases the brakes inertial component by 12%; the wheel that enables these large brakes to fit might weigh more and have a larger rim diameter from 18" to 19" (another 6% or so)--therefore--the rotational inertia of the wheel is increased (maybe as much as 12% but more like 8%) even if the wheels and brakes are lighter on a gravitational scale. All 4 wheels are likely heavier in a rotational sense.

    12 RWHP on a 300 RWHP car is only 4%, but it is above the noise level of a dyno and likely represents a real and repeatable loss. Lets hope the bigger brakes and the new tires make up for the inertial losses.
     
  20. bboxer

    bboxer Formula Junior

    Aug 6, 2001
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    mwarrior, a little correction: The 348/355 kit was not ready as of last week. I hope to have a look at it when everything is ready . A new "fitting" session is scheduled soon.
     
  21. need4speed

    need4speed Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Thanks for the explanation. Fchatters are an awesome group.
     
  22. riverflyer

    riverflyer F1 Rookie

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    Mitch, great explanation and very helpful for those of us who are scientifically challenged. Explanations with examples really helps, thanks.
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Well ST is fine by me but lets see some specs before I lay down $4k! At threshold braking what are the stoping distances of oem 348 vs ST 348. An even better comparison is oem355 vs st 355 since 355 brakes are pretty good lets see if there is a material improvement. 348 brakes can be iffy but personally I have no problem with giant brake ducts.
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I've been giving a lot of thought to a set of ST calipers, they look like great parts. I don't think I'd be looking for a bolt-on kit (I already made custom hat to mount F40 rotors), just calipers with the correct bore pistons. I'm sure the front is no problem, it's really the rear that has been holding me back because the stock caliper has the Ebrake on it. (and of course my wife finding out I spent MORE money on the car...).
     
  25. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    Hey Everyone,

    I have experience with all three though somewhat limited on the Stoptechs.

    I had upgraded to the Brembo F40/F50 kit on my 355 street car and of course the Challenge car had the Brembo's from the 333 SP. My BMW Club racer has the Movit kit (then called a Porsche GT2 Endurance kit) and I have tested two cars at the track with Stoptechs.

    The Movit kit is a very well engineered kit that is a great value for the money. Steve at Ultimate Garage who sells them here in the US is also first class in terms of customer service. The Movit kit was about 2K cheaper than my Brembo F40/F50 kit and I can't really say there was much difference between the two even though they were on different cars (M5 and 355). I would say based on cost alone the Movit kits wins.

    The Brembo's on the Challenge car really can't be compared as they are a full race setup and would cost somewhere around 12K to get from FNA.

    In regards to Stoptech, I think early on they were not really a high quality kit. I saw many people in the BMW and Audi trackday scene buy them early on (2000 and 2001) and most had problems with them or they didn't hold up well. That being said from what I have heard and my experiences testing a Speed World Challenge car and a BMW Club racer (M3) they now seem to be as good as the Movit and Brembo kits.

    If you look up and down the Speed World Challenge Touring class grid about 1/3 use them (which may be more than any other brake system in use in the series which include Brembo, AP, and a few others).

    I think you need to look at your particular application for which brand. Also keep under consideration that the first few kits for your car may have some problems until they get ironed out.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net (new site)
     
  26. mwarrior

    mwarrior Formula Junior
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    Jon: I know that writeup helped me, and will probably help other people as well.

    That being said, ST is doubling their space, and also hiring more people for the research and such. Also, this is from a ST press release so that should speak for itself, but heres a quote: "Bill Auberlen, 2003 SPEED Touring Car champion, picked up where he left off from last season winning the first race of the 2004 season at Sebring... this time around with StopTech brakes."

    I think starting off as you said they may have had some problems, but that also was about 3-4years ago. Every company has a few problems at the beginning though.


    Omar: I talked to the rep, and 6 kits for any one vehicle is ok, as long as they're 6 4wheel kits, because it is still 12 axles.
     
  27. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Just wondering how this inquire ended, is ST going to be making at least stage 1 & 2 kits for Ferraris? I would love to go ST stage II with Slotted discs if they makes them.
     
  28. ultgar

    ultgar Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
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    Steve D'Gerolamo
    As far as size goes, Movit has everyone beat....they make a 342mm rotor for17" rims, a 370mm rotor for 18's and a 396mm rotor for 19's. For the big SUV's, they will have rotors up to 450x36mm with 2pc CNC billet calipers. Movit also does private labelling of brake kits for Kleemann, Ralliart, MTM and Abt in Europe.

    Since Bob Lee of Stoptech thinks I'm better suited to selling shelving and shop supplies, Justin Thompson is now part of Movit North America , a guy who has more Ferrari experience than the complete staff at Stoptech.

    For some idea of what Movit has to offer, see http://www.ultimategarage.com/bigbrake2.html or http://www.ultimategarage.com/movitnew.htm .
     

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