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Story of 250 GT Cabriolet s/n 0799

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by SonomaRik, May 2, 2008.

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  1. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    there is a difference between an average joe making an off hand comment to a buddy and a magazine that is read and used as reference material by a large proportion of the potential marketplace for these objects publishing unsubstantiated and ultimately erroneous accusations. i would hope that it doesn't take this case to make one realize the dangers of publicly uttering unsubstantiated falsehoods that have a direct and material impact upon someone.
     
  2. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Sheesh...there WAS A SHAKEDOWN! Those defamatory ads were part of an extortion plot. Someone wanted a free car (siezed by police from Hallingby and then given to them) or a payoff to go away.

    You want crooks and their victim to just get together and "work things out"?!

    Seriously?

    Life is an IQ test and not everyone passes.
     
  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Are you claiming that the Ferrari Market Letter and Cavallino were part of this SHAKEDOWN?

    Dale
     
  4. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    They published the different, defamatory ads that came from 3rd party crooks. Did FML or Cavallino stand to gain from the crime? No. Did they realize that they were being used by crooks? Probably not.

    But it still happened.
     
  5. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    i do not recall nor think that anyone here has accused either publication of criminal conspiracy. what is at issue here is whether or not they are guilty of civil negligence which the presiding judge, by allowing the case to go forward, has deemed worthy of examination. personally i am mystified as to why the publications did not, upon submission of the ads, did not just inform the person submitting the ad of the whereabouts of the car and in who's possession it is. afaik it's common practice amongst ferrari aficionados to track these cars by their serial numbers (i'm looking at you carbon) and hallingby made absolutely no effort to disguise his ownership. of course in doing so there would be no ad revenue. unless, of course, they did not know by the model and serial number the location of the vehicle but that would mean that they're not very knowledgeable of the collectable ferrari world. in my view that would be an ironic defense.
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    #706 Jeff Kennedy, Jun 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2011
    But what if both publications checked with an internationally recognized Ferrari authority if there was any substance to the "stolen" claim and that authority said yes? The public filings assert this to have occurred. Does this constitute a level of sufficient due diligence?

    Jeff
     
  7. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    i was not aware of that fact, thanks for the info. keeping in mind that i'm neither a judge nor a "law talking dude" (apologies for the simpsons reference) my opinion really means squat but if these assertions are factual then it may very well be sufficient. in the end that's what these court proceedings are for.

    with this knowledge in hand i will reassert my position that a true ferrari authority would certainly know the location of the vehicle and therefore by extension the publications would know as well. why not just inform the entity submitting the ads of the information of which they seek and why did they not wonder why the ads were seeking what is, in essence, common knowledge amongst the cognoscenti? from what i've seen on this forum i could spit out an inquiry consisting of nothing but a serial number and get the information i desire within moments. again this action would not result in any ad revenue but as we so often see chasing a short dollar can cost you in the long run. i'm sure the legal fees far exceed whatever the ads brought in.
     
  8. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    btw jeff that is one hot colour you have on your 308.
     
  9. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    The publications most assuredly checked with those in the know in the Ferrari community on the history of the car, but the ad was **NOT** charging that 0799 had counterfeit aftermarket parts installed by some backroom garage.

    Instead, the ad was making a claim against the governmnet-issued title to 0799. Now, if the publications in questions checked with *government* sources regarding the sanctity of the government-issued title to 0799, then they will have a valid, viable defense for publishing the ads that called said title into question.

    However, if the publications avoided checking with government sources for the ads claims against 0799's government-issued title, then the publications have something to fret about.

    The bigger picture, however, is what happens to the scamsters who went after the car/Hallingby. Someone paid for those ads, after all.
     
  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Please tell us why YOUR position is any better than, say, my dog's position?

    Are you aware that Carol Roush could, in theory, lose her home over an ad her deceased husband ran for, what, $500?

    Do you think this is justice?

    If you have first-hand knowledge of what happened, I suspect you will be receiving a subpoena in the mail.

    I never knew you were a lawyer, must less a Supreme Court judge.

    Funny, I don't recall the "scamsters" being a party to the lawsuit, do you?

    Folks, this is not funny. This is not the same as watching the Mavs versus the Heat on TV. This is real. There are some people who stand to get seriously hurt here. All over a car.

    Bottom line? This is the end of any kind of free exchange of ideas over the Internet or any other type of media. Think about it. Let's say you are a renowned Ferrari expert. Why would you post ANYTHING on Ferrari Chat? Why would you say ANYTHING about any car for any reason?

    And all this over a car that was never allegedly stolen.

    I give up.

    Dale
     
  11. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    that's a subjective thing. i would expect that your dog's opinion means more to you than my opinion. he's your dog after all and he just managed to express an opinion....on a ferrarichat thread. snausage time!

    having already stated in another post that in being a layman and not having a dog in the race, my opinion essentially means squat. so in that light i cannot help but feel that you are taking the discourse in a slightly too personal a manner. please don't, i mean you no animosity.

    given your concerns for freedom of speech i'm sure you do not mean to undermine my own right to express mine.



    i think we're making the same point here. where we differ is whether or not hallingby should just take the hit. he didn't start this. should he just take the loss simply because he is someone who can afford a multi-million dollar auto?


    my idea of justice is that we are not hearing anything about this because there is a criminal investigation underway because you are absolutely right in that some people stand to get seriously hurt. sadly it might just be complications due to jurisdictions.

    remember this car has a market value in the millions. people do much more serious things for much less. a simple sad truth in life.

    i refer you to schenck v. united states it's the famous oliver wendell holmes opinion limiting the first amendment. "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a popular metaphor for this decision. i don't think there are any new concerns here and i certainly hope no one is yelling "fire!"
     
  12. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Thank you. Metallic Prugna 306/C. It is very sensitive to lighting conditions and shows as a medium dark red to a near purple.

    Jeff
     
  13. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    i noticed that in the difference between your avatar photo and your "my garage" photo. nice effect.
     
  14. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't think that it was "justice" that Hallingby came within a hair's width of being illegally arrested, that his car *was* illegally confiscated, and that his reputation and value of his car were damaged by scamsters.

    Those who furthered the above did real damage. That they may suffer from tort is not a defense against tort.


    You wave your hands in the air a lot. When my kids do that, I call them on their hysterics and remind them that they are not so important to the world that the least infraction demands their most pressing response.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Ditto.
     
  16. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Other than the ad itself is there evidence of direct collusion by the advertiser and Roush and/or Barnes?

    Jeff
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Well then, she needs some hot shot financial advisor to create a shell company to take the losses, and create and arms' length arrangement whereby the losses are captured as off sheet balances, and she is held harmless to continue her rose gardening....kind of a TARP GM/FIAT/Chrysler thing, of some sort...."poison pill"????

    I think we have guys like that, in Houston....:D :D

    I think Fastow is getting out soon.......

     
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Two points

    1 - I dont know Barney but a full and frank apology by the defendants may well go some way to appeasing him.

    2 - Indeed anyone and everyone closely interested in classic F - cars would know Barney had the car, so why publicise the theory that he stole it ?. There is no palitable answer to that question.
     
  19. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    [Crickets chirping]

    Dale
     
  20. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    WTF?

    Dale
     
  21. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Kinda hard to do when you are dead.

    And, what, are they supposed to apologize for? Running an ad? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be saying that by running the ad these two publications were in cahoots with the "scammers?" Is that why the plaintiff is suing the FML and Cavalinio and not the people who paid for the ad?

    Dale
     
  22. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    When the Jury returns we shall see.
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    It would have.

    Exacto. In addition Barnes had taken money from Barney to let Barney place THIS car on Cavallino's lawn and the exact make, model, chassis number and Barney's address were required and provided on the application to so do. As you've said there is no palatable answer to that.
     
  24. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    well, someone was kind enough to forward me some of the court filings and as that i've opened up my yap to comment on this subject i've read them.

    in further response to jeff re: due diligence. remember these are filings submitted by both plaintiff and defendants and therefore as biased as can be under the confines of the law. i.e. scott rosen's affidavit mentions fbi s.a ken crook (insert "crook" joke here) as having provided information clearing 0799's title while a defense filing states that s.a. crook was the first person to inform mr. roush that 0799 was stolen. so until i see an sworn affidavit from the "authority" (marcel massini) and even then it wouldn't carry the same weight as sworn and cross examined testimony i don't think we can say what mr.massini did or did not say with any reliability. i don't think i form a personal opinion as to due diligence lacking this. on the subject of mr.massini i found it humourous that mr.roush's affidavit refers to an email received (from mr massini confirming 0799 as stolen) but not retained, then proceeds to submit a copy of that email into evidence.

    i assume it is this detail that spurred dr.who's rant on this case's potential effect on freedom of speech. i would opine that regardless of the outcome of this case it would be unwise to comment on an ongoing legal proceeding publicly when you are intimately involved in it. i wouldn't expect nor advise mr. massini to comment on this subject. i doubt whether this case presents any new challenges to freedom of speech.

    as per why weber and his client are not named in the suit? again, my hope and unsubstantiated guess is that hallingby is more interested in criminal charges against them and as such it would be advisable to obtain a criminal conviction before a civil one as that a criminal finding will bolster a civil action but not necessarily vis versa.

    what i am curious about and hope is addressed by the proceedings is why, with all the conflicting opinion on this car, did the defendants accept the ad? if, as they stated in their filings, disseminating this information was important to the community as a whole why not run it as a article (my layman's interpretation tells me they would be more effectively protected by the first amendment in such a case) and not an ad?
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Exactly.
     

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