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Story of 250 GT Cabriolet s/n 0799

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by SonomaRik, May 2, 2008.

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  1. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

    Jun 24, 2004
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    Marnix
    I suppose they accepted the ad since that is (partly) the business they are in.

    You'd have to ask yourself the question who is responsible for the actual content of the ad and for the consequences it might have for any third party. Is it legitimate to publicly claim a car is stolen even if you are not sure of it? If so, is it legitimate to run the claim in the form of an ad in one's publication? If not, than apparently FML and Cavallino had to investigate for themselves whether or not the claim was supported by the facts and could they only have run the ad if the facts were indeed there. Is a publisher really to that extend responsible for the content of an ad once they decided to run it? Well, the judge will decide, but it makes for an interesting case.

    One thing is for sure though, 0799GT is no longer a 'no stories car'. If and how it will affect it's value is another difficult question.
     
  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    I'm going to take your advice and exit stage left. No dawg in this hunt. I don't know the plaintiff or the Barnes, and Gerald Roush and I were not the best of friends.

    I take back everything I said. Apologies in advance. Feel free to sue everybody else left standing.

    Dale
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    That is absolutely true.
     
  4. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    in one of the defense filings was an exhibit that consisted of a summary of 0799's history as compiled by marcel massini. it stated that in 2000 a transaction fell through involving symbolic motors due to rumors surrounding 0799. of course this was a defense filing but assuming this is true, wouldn't this make it a "story" car to begin with?
     
  5. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    i don't recall advising you to withdraw from this conversation, in any case thanks for the debate. i see no need for you to retract any of your statements but obviously you're free to do what you like in this respect. btw i'm not the litigious type so no worries.
     
  6. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    Jeff B.
    Shouldn't the title of this thread be changed? Or at least put into quotation marks?
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    It really should.
     
  8. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Erik
    Well for a short period of time it was "stolen" from BH.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  9. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    It would lend support to the opinion "something" went down in Spain.

    It may well be free and clear to the U.S. courts but as mentioned somewhere way back in this thread it might not be able to travel to Europe for events......

    That would diminish it's sale market if not it's actual cash value.

    But then 'deals fall thru' for any number of reasons, hard to speculate exactly what that might mean, IMO.
     
  10. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    True.
     
  11. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    OK - I have a simple question:

    I can see that having a problem with the serial number, correct engine, possible counterfeit body or something could very much affect the value of the car...

    But, if the car is real, and this can be verified -

    What difference in value would it make if it were just stolen and then recovered intact?

    Wouldn't that just add a little charm to the car's history - sort of like having a celebrity owner?
     
  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Apr 5, 2010
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    And this is still the situation we find ourselves in today. If as I do, you feel that BH owns the car, all power to us. BUT there will be people out there that still consider the vehicle tarnished in some important way. And once a claimant is revealed then even if the claimant says he is happy with the result there is still the possibility that the claimant will reneg. In this situation one would assume the "spanish" claimant, if he exists, is still trying to chase his payday as it were.

    Several easy questions (and yes I have read the entire thread)

    Does anyone know who the "Spanish" claimant is ?

    Does anyone think this will be the end of the matter ?

    Did Marcel have some specific knowledge of the negotiations by Symbolic in 2000 or just acknowledge speculation ?

    If the vehicle has the question of ongoing litigation of some type by any so called claimant to the ownership, then surely it makes it difficult to sell, I wouldnt buy a car that could get claimed at some point, in some country. and that is dimished value right ?

    Finally, why doesnt the "claimant" claim the car through the Swiss courts ? and if that is not possible due to the Swiss legal system, cut his losses and let it go ?

    This is a fascinating thread :)
     
  13. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    The original ownership was a partnership of some sort, IIRC of two Swiss owners, and the car was stored out of the country.

    To avoid Swiss taxation.

    One of the owners sold the car, but was not the majority partner?

    It's the estate of the majority owner now seeking recovery?

    That's my Cliff Notes of the whole thing, feel free to correct and elaborate.

    I think the U.S. based Importer acted in good faith, with legitimate documents (Interpol didn't stop the shipment) as did everyone downstream of that transaction. Plus, obviously as values increased a trainload of $$$$ was spent to get it to the current condition.
     
  14. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2008
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    Is there a chance that if the car is taken out of it's current jurisdiction new legal action might be brought?
     
  15. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    afaik big tex has got it right and yes, my opinion is that hallingby is the rightful owner of the car regardless of whether or not it was not stolen (which i don't believe it was) if my understanding of the uniform commercial code is correct. iirc the european authorities declined to pursue criminal charges and deemed it a civil matter just as the u.s. has done now. so i would hope that the matter is over in respect to ownership. thank god the car was seized by the connecticut state police and not the fbi.
     
  16. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    #741 SonomaRik, Jun 8, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2011
    This has merit to me though quotation marks will not address the entire situation, but perhaps: "Story of a 250 GT Cabriolet # 0799"

    After all is said and done, the key word, unfortunately, will be STORY.

    Leaving out the word "STOLEN" would be a better presentation, as it almost implies a taking of sides.

    The thread is a good debate from my perspective as I feel most, also, feel.
    --------------
    However there is true sadness in this story and to what direct measure I cannot state which leaves me with where I see this now:


    Firstly:
    I will qualify the entry at the time: It was how I perceived a valid ad in a very nice magazine I have subscribed for years [Sorry NAPOLIS/Jim, I feel your pain, but you'll admit it has value].

    Was I to investigate or know more from my vast Ferrari knowledge? Not my forte and certainly not my ability. Obviously.

    This is why I started the thread: It was a question to those that "Know their stuff" to the Nth degree to clarify [perhaps only time will tell] what seemed a valid claim and what was printed as such: That is my layman’s take. If there be a validity to simpletons reading and moving fwd with such a take for the parties to make a case, then I can be a poster child.


    Lastly:

    I now feel utter sadness and worse.

    I feel, honestly, sadly responsible to have, perhaps, affected either directly or indirectly severe damage. It makes me wonder how much as some have gone to their maker, and others are fighting a large, costly if not dangerous battle. Yes, I know perhaps any idiot could have started what I did, but I managed to take the gold ring on that title.

    I have learned the Internet all too lamely it seems in my recless side.

    I want to apologize. I have/had no business with the majors involved and I have a deep feeling of regret for any of the pain that may have arisen from the posting.

    I truly hope that all goes well and life can move along for those that remain. For those that have gone, unfortunately, I will not be capable to yet, properly, address.

    What can seem a benign Internet is/ever not to be the case. There are no small effects.
     
  17. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2006
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    Followup:

    Knowing how my posting can spur possible further questions regarding title change [it's the internet and we know someone will ask]

    I submitted the request for change to the mod at the same instant I posted the above.


    But in my perspective with a few provisions:

    - It is a formal request to change it from STOLEN to STORY

    - That any change be posted as to WHY in the thread proper: One may re-write history but that one must document the change and reason.

    - It's up to FC staff to decide the change if, when, and how.
     
  18. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Erik
    I'm not sure you should feel bad about starting the thread. It's clear the events that unfolded afterwards would have taken place regardless and also at that point many would agree the damage had already been done.

    If nothing else, the thread has been helpful in removing speculation over what transpired as several in-the-know individuals have been able to paint a pretty clear picture of the facts up to this point. Opinions may differ on where this will lead us but that's to be expected in almost any legal situation.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  19. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Oct 16, 2007
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    Has a trial date been set?

    Has it been determined if this will this be a jury or bench trial?

    Jeff
     
  20. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Carbon McCoy
    While I kept my database constantly updated when this story first came out, it's been a while since I've added any updates to the notes I have on 0799 GT. Can you provide an abridged chronology of what's transpired since the STOLEN FERRARI ad that ran in Cavallino? I'd like to update my information for future reference (and there will be future reference).

    As an aside - though it's just as important - it's ridiculous for you to feel responsible for the possible misleading of anyone, simply because you started the thread, or posted (mis)information herein. You only posted what you knew/heard/saw, and never asserted any imputrescibility thereof. I can't help but wonder if you feel this way because offended parties, either suing or being sued, have contacted you privately, casting blame for what was never your fault.
     
  21. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    jury trial, jeff.
     
  22. dantealdente

    dantealdente Karting

    Nov 7, 2009
    60
    sonomarik, as far as i can see the only thing you might be "guilty" of is being quicker than the rest of us. someone would have started this thread eventually.
     
  23. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    Carbon,

    Were you working for Gerald when the ad ran? If so, do you have any insight?

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  24. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    changed the thread title. good idea.

    thanks,
    rob
     
  25. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2006
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    #750 SonomaRik, Jun 9, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011
    Thanks Rob: Actually Napolis and Peloton25 should get the good idea credit.

    As for all the other comments above, I'm constructing a response.
     

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