Stumbled across this 250GTO restoration

Exactly, all this rubbish being spouted by the same old people on here and the 0858 thread about original components, techniques etc and even the original manufacturer does not think its an issue to not abide by such policies

 

and yet you remain anonymous.

 

Not at all, I have a thread going in the special projects section, and am in support of the restorer of this car who is an expert in the field and whose knowledge far out ways anything I can add to the debate.

I have no expertise on the matter or have tried to impose any, just an interested observer airing his perceptions on the matter of the threads in question.

 

Hand sewing or machine sewing ?

Lead Filler or Plastic filler ?

Cellulose paint or Acrylic ?

Hand Beating or English Wheel ?

The difference may be indiscernible but whats wrong with appreciating those that choose to ignore the easy option ?

 

Nothing wrong with that EnigmaRacing, something very wrong with some zealots who would have us believe that every restoration should follow a very narrow path of absolute originality and anything else is sacriledge. I am impressed when I read about a totally exacting Paul Russell style restoration but I also think at times it is still just a car.

 

A very considered and commendable opinion Enigma, but life isn't so simple anymore and the problem is that if the misinformed opinions being set forward are not challenged they gain credibility and become folk law and they are pedalled ad infinitum ........... so let's not forget the practicalities for instance,

Lead or filler, the lead now being sold is nothing like the quality that I used 50 years ago, I think that today's product is more suited to plumbers and for jointing electrical connections in power sub stations it is full of crap which leave massive pin holes and voids which retain the tallow we use when paddling it to shape, this oily tallow leaches out at a later stage and ruins the new paintwork. Furthermore the tinning paste which is initially applied to provide adhesion is highly corrosive and over night promotes rust on a scale which has to be seen to be believed, finally lead and the tinning paste are extremely toxic materials to use, one of my old panel beater's died of throat cancer at the age of 60 ........... now that is a pretty high price to pay for using a crap material in the name of originality; any takers' out there ????? as I said times change and we need to adapt .......... it's not good to kill off your highly skilled Artisans.
Finally, Lead filler can not be used on a alloy body, firstly it wont stick and secondly the panel distortion caused by the hot mass being applied would be cataclysmic !!!!! It should be remembered that using Lead filler is not a virtue; the only reason Ferrari used so much lead filler was to cover up it's shoddy panel work.

Body filler, no one likes to use body filler, its a dirty and demoralising job but you need to differentiate between inches of filler applied to cover up shoddy work and a fine skim which is necessary because every bodies standards and levels of appreciation has risen ............ gloss levels have risen, I vividly remember seeing new Ferraris in the 60s and 70 and laughing at the childlike workmanship ( is that the right word ;~}

Cellulose or Acrylic, let's get this straight once and for all, Cellulose was an English thing used through out our commonwealth, Ferrari used Thermo Plastic Acrylic ( TPA ) by todays standards both materials were rubbish but were well suited to the demands of low volume manufacturers; Acrylic has not been available here in the UK for years ( Praise the Lord ........ it was cursed with micro blistering and crazing. Cellulose possibly the lesser evil was incapable of producing the beautiful clean hues favoured by foreign manufacturers ........... I remember that " Post Office Red" was the cleanest red available here in the UK and it was a nasty dirty colour by comparison. I hate to use the "Green Card" but Cellulose like all it's advocates is out of step with the modern world, the amount of solvent used is unacceptable ........... Likewise most of the ancillary products which supported Cellulose are now with drawn which is in itself the final nail in it's coffin and finally there are very few old timers left who have experience applying Cellulose, remember the good old days' when we sprayed holding our breath in an open shop with out overalls or spray masks, I remember when I was a kid and I painted a car white, before it dried another painter painted a red car nearby and his overspray settled on my job and turned it pink ....... how we laughed ....... Painting cars in Cellulose is a misguided work creation scheme which is fine if that is your agenda, just don't sell it as the Holy Grail. ps, I just remembered all the sinkage / shrinking issues and warranty claims we used to have in the good old TPA / Cellulose days' :~{

Hand Beating or Wheeling, it's a really big subject which I am happy to expand on, however I have dealt with this before and life is short ......... there is plenty of information out there. My comments to date have been replies to the points which were raised by fellow posters, I have been happy to let it run just to see where it all goes, it doesn't concern me that people post with such messianic fervour; that's modern life, for instance if you check the photos I have posted, they show Artisans using hammers' and dollies' and this fact has been ignored by posters who I can only imagine have a separate mission in life ( or maybe no life ) true there is an English Wheel in the background ( some how this nomenclature is starting to sound a touch racist ;~}
In closing I guess it's time to 'Fess up as they say, and admit to the fact that yes we keep a tree stump and shoe heel on site for emergencies ............ please see the attached photo for proof, cheers fellow posters Rosso Kev.
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Because Italians are funny about originality. I would not get my Ferrari (if i had one) restored by Ferrari as they do not care about how it was originally built. Afterwards it would struggle at a concours competition for example.

My conclusion: I think Ferrari are wrong
Pete

 

I learn something new everyday !

 

I agree and further more if the end product looks wrong it usually is wrong. There are artisans out there who understand these older cars and there are those who like to talk a lot in the hope of convincing someone. Its known as bull**** baffling brains.

 

Hi fellow Fchatters, Mototechnique sends warm and seasonal greetings to all our friends around the World xxxxxx Rosso Kev.
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Here's an example ....
Happy New Year
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I hope the webmaster doesn't give up his day job

 

Your sketches are fantastic. Great work!

Congrats!

 

Spot-on.

 

Darren,
Chris's photo is of a Daytona which was not produced by hammer beaten panels but by stamped panels I believe ... I'm not going to say anymore about this car as there are dramas here.


But Darren your comments about having to layer filler on to finish hammered panels is not 100% correct. Look at Jim's P3/4 and P412 restorations plus look here at this restoration: Giulia SS Bondo Sculpture - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums. This guy restore Alfa Romeos with the hammer technique as that is how he was trained.

I also think the comment about posters discussing techniques having to be experts first is missing the point. All we are saying is that GTO's were made by hammering panels out not by a press and not with the aid of an English wheel. I have discussed this with Kev before and accept his position that he was not trying to hide where they had to let in repairs ... fair enough, but I also can see the view that restorations should use appropriate techniques if possible.

I'm restoring an Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV and hand making some repair panels. In this case that is not correct as they were stamped but I cannot afford to purchase reproduction panels, plus when I started this restoration the panels available were rubbish ... so I guess I've missed the mark too. But with hand made bodies the skills and techniques are still out there to 100% accurately reproduce the shell.
Pete

 

another example of fantastic filler on my 275 pre-restoration......
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Wow! That probably deserves some sort of prize as a sculpture!

 

Mark
Ah yes, a "fine skim" again.

At first sight, Darren's post does not fit with the exemplary standards of workmanship that we have all seen from him so I suspect there may be some misunderstanding. However 30kg is a massive amount in any car.... More like Mark's.

Chris

 

So that's how you make a 275GTB into a Long-nose version!


It's a funny old site here! - So far over the years of being on this site, in the various sections, I've seen people being told that they cannot have an opinion on something because they did not subscribe to the site!, others being told that they had no right to an opinion because they did not own a Ferrari!, and now it's suggested that you can only have an opinion about car body restoration if you're a skilled restorer! (or at least had some experience of body restoration).

I've sorted out the rusty wheel arches on My old BMW! - Does that count towards being allowed an opinion?

 

Criticising workmanship and criticising choices made are two entirely different things.

Let those familiar with top standards of workmanship pass judgement on technique and let those with a love of Ferrari and a healthy respect for its history pass judgement on the choices made.