Stumbled across this 250GTO restoration

Mark you're a hero who tolerated and went through all these s#!t but i believe that it was worth every minute of this restoration project.

 

and none of the are how they left Ferrari. Never that bad and I do not understand why we are showing them as it is confusing the debate, which as a reminder is about using original techniques.

Oh and Darren you should really start a repair business for all the metal trim, etc. that people throw out (due to lack of skill) and sell them back to the market. Saves them being wasted and you make some cash!
Pete

 

Those filler cars are amazing, they must have 50 psi in the tyres to cope with the weight!

I think I would prefer a wheeled panel to a hammered then bogged up one.

 

And this post is why I am frustrated with the posting of the bogged up Ferraris INCORRECTLY as examples of hammer finished cars ... banging my head gently on my desk . Paul500, they are not, they are poorly repaired cars. Also Ferrari of that period used lead not bog ... even 308's have lots of lead in them, especially around the B pillar.

Please go to this thread to see a hammer finished car: Giulia SS Bondo Sculpture - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums. Please note you need to navigate to near the end of the thread to see the finished body shell. At the begining he is removing bog and rust.

Here is a photo (from that Alfa thread) since I'm getting annoyed that posters are not understanding what hammer finishing really is:
Pete
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In fact it would be good if the Moderators deleted from Chris's (gtospoons) post down to this one (161 to 181) because I believe Chris was making a different statement to Kevin ... again I won't go any further there.

None of the photos above show proper hammer methods (other than the Alfa Sprint Speciale) and add nothing to this discussion.
Pete

 

I realise they are not examples of properly hammered cars and panels as the skills of the true artisans who can do this are being lost as the market shrinks, the english wheel is still commonly used is classic circles, at least here in the UK and the states, and it produces a far superior finish requiring less finessing with filler so will survive as a skill.

Its like anything, techniques move on, adapt or are lost I don't imagine there are many wooden cartwheel craftsmen about any more either.

 

But I'm sure you would agree if you found an old wooden cartwheel it should be restored correctly and not replaced by a welded steel one (for example).

So I don't think you are understanding the point of this thread. We are not discussing which technique should survive but which should be used.

The 275GTB who had it's nose bogged is not an example of hammering a panel at all, it is an example of a botched repair that the person who was instructed to do had to do because his boss told him to (I followed this restoration). Again this has nothing to do with this discussion. Neither does the photo of the Daytona windscreen surround (they weren't even hammered anyway).

Might as well close this thread as it is now useless ... I'm out.
Pete
ps: I believe carbon fibre is the current trend for modern body shells and chassis. Based on Paul's view the next 250GTO to be restored should have a carbon fibre chassis and shell. No filler at all!

Restoration is never about the best current method but the right method! And companies that restore things need to ensure they train their staff on these right methods so the art is never lost.

 

WITHERS,
No act of kindness ever goes unpunished,

Oh dear, I really wish you hadn’t posted ........... I have avoided answering your earlier posts due to your threats of legal proceedings and to the fact that I had wanted to leave you with at least some dignity ........ your postings’ cut quite a different image to the real facts ........... enough is enough; you have stalked me for far too long.

I was kind and compassionate to you when you were sick and vulnerable, you offered to give me your Daytona project in lei of payment when funds ran out, I refused your offer as I thought to accept would have been immoral. Out of genuine pity I tore up outstanding bill and funded in excess of £25,000-00 of my own money into your project to get it to a point where you a self proclaimed hobbyist engineer could finish it off, in the light of the following events how stupid was that ?? but as my old mate FranK Bott used to say " You have to be able to look at your self in the mirror when you shave in the morning " I know in my heart that I did the right thing.

I never said it would be ready for paint or perfect as you later claimed and we parted on a hand shake as gentlemen and I still have your E mail letter of warm thanks.

Surprisingly I then received a letter out of the blue with no warning from your Solicitors wasting my time and running up legal bills, it was at a time when my Wife of nearly fifty years was desperately ill and I thought this was quite a bizarre payback given the circumstances .........

I recall how you accused us of stealing parts from your project only having to backtrack when you realized that said parts were carefully wrapped and placed in the boot space of your car and I recall that you never paid for the expensive Epoxy chassis paint which I willingly supplied .......... most telling and I since have watched you become a professional victim gathering a following of sympathisers on your way !!!

F Chatters, .............. I’m sure it’s tempting to see us restorers as the villains of the piece, this is not always the case we are as much sinned against, sadly that’s just normal business today.
I do not bear fools lightly or blow smoke and this has obviously caused resentment and this shows in some of the very personal postings against me whereby unresolved and insecure people seek to use this forum to promote themselves and to vent their spleens.

The sun is shining bright here on the Ski slopes of Austria and I’m off to enjoy time with my Grandchildren and friends on the slopes, let’s put all this nonsense behind us and start the new year afresh, moving on and wishing you all the best for the New Year (even you gtospoons) Champagne tonight, xxxxxx to all, Rosso Kev.

 

Rosso Kev
I really don't see how my agreement with a statement originally posted by Ginge82, which was, "Restoring with a healthy respect to how these wonderful things were made matters to some and I certainly include myself in that group.", can provoke such a response from you. I'm sure that I am not the only person that agrees with this and I have always avoided getting personal in my posts, only trying to deal with the facts and photos as presented.

The reason all this "filler-chat" has arisen is based on your own statement about the necessity for a fine skim and we all understand that, however it is clear that some cars are "restored" with masses of filler where there should be virtually none. This, as you have said, is to cover up bad workmanship.

I believe this forum is a place to air views on cars which are well restored such as Mark's 275, JG's amazing P4's etc., and also the bad ones. We learn from both the good and the bad. This thread started out as a GTO thread and in an effort to stay on topic, I would like to say that when I built my GTO rear end, after Chris Lawrence died, I hammer formed it all and finished with the appropriate "fine skim". I know I only bought 10kg of filler and most of that was blocked off, ending up on the floor. I doubt if there was 5kg in the whole car when I started primer.

As I have said before, I have drawn a line under my Daytona's disaster and matters are under way to get it back to how it should be. Personal matters will never be sorted out on this forum and imo should be kept off it. Not a lot more I can say, so, moving on....

I hope you enjoy your holiday and have a happy New Year.
Chris

 

A wooden cartwheel repaired/made using modern tools is still up to the job as one made by hand using tools from 100 years ago, where have I said substitute the base materials? you are the one that has gone off on a tangent saying substitute metal for wood and carbon fibre for aluminium.

What I am saying it that modern techniques that produce an item just as good, and actually probably better than when originally made are worthy substitutes if the original skills have been lost or in decline.

Do you really think the craftsmen of yesteryear would have toiled using such difficult techniques if they had the opportunity to use easier methods back then, hell no, they just had no choice at the time.

 

Fair call. I was trying to make a point through exaggeration.

I think the methods chosen relate to the "worth" of the item to the owner/restorer. I do not necessarily mean monetary value but maybe historic position (to owner/restorer). It's a complex debate with many factors and the skills of your workshop would be part of the equation (and in the GTOs case I suspect this was a large factor).

Potentially related example: I know of a Alfa Romeo GTC restoration where they had to reproduce a lot of the floor and extra strengthening members. After this work was completed, but thankfully still unpainted, by chance they were able to compare to an original one and realised their workmanship was too high and they went back to their car and deliberately roughed up their welds, etc. so it looked more original. I think this is the right thing to do because we are, or IMO, should be trying to restore things as they were (rust protection methods excepted).

Have I done this to my car? I hope/plan that any of my welds are completely invisible/unnoticed when undersealed and painted. Even where I have not been able to spot weld I will make it look like it was spot welded. I do actually have an old single phase spot welder that I bought from a second hand tool shop but while I have used it many times I'm not fully confident in it and seam weld also ... I plug weld more often now.
Pete

 

I have been following this thread with interest.From time to time things seem to remind me of some of the comments in the 0858 thread.What I would like to hear is some thoughts on the best of the current products, their uses,best products for fiberglass,steel,aluminum etc and techniques in using these products and any other helpful comments. Most of us are not in the restoration business but it would be helpful to have some knowledge of these products when considering a body restoration job. So many restoration jobs that looked good turned out to be just cover ups of serious existing problems. Let's hear some informative discussion of the subject. Thanks tongascrew

 

Here are a couple of pics of 6 GTO being looked after by myself and a very good friend at Goodwood Revival in 2012 and a number of other GTO's also. (First picture credit John Lakey)
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now that looks really weird! what s/n is your 275?

 

07333
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/280041-restoration-starts-here-275gtb-shortnose-07333-a.html

 

thank you - your car looks really great!

 

Sadly the unique Graber interior has been recycled.

"The outer shell of these unique wallets is constructed of leather removed from Ferrari 250GTO, chassis number 3527GT. Whilst the car was built in 1962, the leather was installed three years later in 1965 when the GTO was 'civilianised' for road rather than race use. Some of the wallets, those made of the GTO’s old headlining, feature diamond stitching and a few are in black, but most consist of smooth tan leather, this being from either the car’s rear parcel shelf or rear wheel arch covers. The miniature sculptures mounted upon the bottom right corner of each wallet are crafted of aluminium also from 3527GT. Most of the wallets display minor blemishes, the leather was, after all, part of a regularly used GTO for over forty years, but this surface patination only enhances their look and originality. Very few GTOs had a leather interior installed and in consequence it is extremely unlikely such ex-GTO leather wallets will ever be offered again. Each Wallet is accompanied by a provenance booklet and a certificate of authenticity."
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I wonder if it's the bit I have had my rear on!!!

 

I carry a bit of #3527 on my sleeve...
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Boy, you guys argue about a lot of stupid crap...