Stupid Question #2

Parts are expensive, labour is expensive. My advice: buy the best car you can afford, and try to fix and maintain it yourself Lot's of help and advice can be found on this forum.

 

The problem with low mileage cars is that things perish through lack of use. 5000 miles on a 30 year old car indicates long periods of sitting with no use. Rubber deteriorates, fluids go off. As far as sorting goes, it never stops. It's not always big, expensive things but you'll be forever "sorting". Owning a Ferrari is not a cheap pastime. On the positive side you'll smile like a kid on Xmas morning every time you go for a drive.

 

Great post, my first chuckle of the day!

If you're talking about carb'ed car, "sorting" is a continual process, not normally performed in one $20K shot...

A $20K bill from a shop could mean that's how much it cost to get all the gremlins out of some neglected car, or it could mean that's when the owner gave up and decided to get rid of the car... This is where the PPI process becomes important.

That being said, it's my view that these cars are 30+ years old and something is waiting to fail all the time, so I spring for the long-distance towing option from AAA.

 

Use it or loose it, that's my motto.

 

Agree with others, a car sitting is just rotting away.

When I got my car, I replaced all hoses and belts. And I do mean all. I am sure that most would have lasted longer but after 32 years they have to be breaking down. I figured it is best to get them all done and then not worry about them.

I have also had the shocks rebuilt. Again, 32 years is a long time. I am thinking I should have done the bushings at the same time but maybe that will be something for next winter.

Besides, there are plenty of other little things to keep me busy. Last week, the flasher relay ($11.30 at Advance Auto Parts). Still thinking about the cracked tail light (new $500+) but it can be easily repaired.

These cars are old but also reliable. I enjoy both working on and driving it. And, it will make you smile!

The only downside is some parts are expensive. The upside is this forum has cross references for many parts.

PPI, PPI, PPI

 

PM me if you are seriously looking for a sorted car. Please don't be a stroker , I am in poor health and not in good humor. Lost

 

Alfas were notorious for losing the hydraulic clutch when they sit too long.
The cylinder picks up surface corrosion, or even just surface adhesions, and then they rip the rubber seals apart when you try to operate them again.

You see the same effect on shock absorbers and hydraulic lifts.

You also get corrosion on the electrical contacts, flat spots on the tires, etc.

People usually buy cars to drive every day. The effects of a car sitting for long periods isn't unique to Ferraris, but the cost of service on Italians is such that you often see them sit while people "defer" maintenance.

And, while many Japanese cars are "de-tuned" at the factory (thus the "tuner" market), Italian cars tend to leave the factory at peak performance, requiring regular maintenance to keep them there. (Notice that after-market "tweaked" ricers lose the reliability of the factory units.)

Since you have to keep maintenance going on Italians, people often avoid driving them, to delay service. But the service intervals are by either miles or years. You can't really slow down entropy.

While Japanese cars are built with welded on or non-adjustable parts, reducing the things that have to be adjusted regularly, it also makes it difficult to keep them on song for decades. But you can replace parts, readjust, and keep an Italian going forever ... or until it rusts or gets clobbered by a truck.

 

The cheapest Ferrari, is the most expensive. So many folks think that they're preserving their car for the next sale, which is stupid. So they buy it, tell all their friends, go to a picnic to show it off and sell it before the next major or when something needs repair.

I'd rather have a well sorted car with some miles, than a car with no miles and no service. See Dick buy a Ferrari. See Dick store it in his garage. See Dick sell it....DON'T be ******.

 

These are exotic cars with regular maintenance needs. Defer regular maintenance and you end up with a car that is as you say, un-sorted.

A Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI) will explain the condition of all the regular maintenance items, wear items (ie clutch), and the general condition of a car. Search around FChat and check out Birdman's website and you'll get an idea of how much effort there is in fixing broken and worn out things on these cars.

I put together a value list of maintenance items when I was looking for my car a couple of years ago, you can find that here:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/308-328/334998-308-personal-price-tracking-data.html.

These were ball park estimates a couple of years ago, so plug in your own numbers based on what you find.

Good luck!

 

As an example, I purchased my car last April, it had reams of paper with it indicating years of dealer servicing. It wasn't well sorted. It needed new belts to be on the safe side, while working on those I found that the exhaust system was not bolted together correctly so I purchased the right bolts, springs, washers, and nuts. And the boot was torn from the air intake to the plenum. And the engine was dirty as was the suspension. Lots of cleaning. Then time for the fuel filter, and cleaning the fuel lines. Then lots of research on wether to redo the seat leather or try something less expensive. Then the plugs, at which point i discovered that the plug wires (which are enclosed in silicone jackets) were solid core which can cause interference with computer controls and radios as well, so research on what wires are best then replace those. The rearview mirror jiggled so figured a way to fix that, then a window switch was iffy so fixed that... it's just the difference between looking at a beautiful car and driving it. If you drive one you find the little problems. You can either live with them or you can sort it so that there aren't any little problems anymore.

..until the next one. No big expense so far.

Lester
'88.5 328 GTS

 

My advice is to go to this site: NSX-Files Homepage (frameset) and click on chapter 50: "Can't Live Without F355". It's a hysterical view of 355 ownership!

"Wayne and I crack up about each other's misfortunes with the F355. It is like having a wife who is a bi-polar, psychotic, nymphomaniac Victoria Secret lingerie model, in a drug rehab program, with multiple personalities, that you happen to fall in love with. Meaning that it can be a tremendous pain in the ass at times, but you know you can't live without it. So you just deal with the various wacked out incidents that happen. When we talk about the F355 problems, it is like going to an AA meeting for friends and family of alcoholics. We sympathize with each other, we are our own support group."

The site was created by a guy who started tracking his NSX, then turned it into a pure race car, and along the way decided to buy a 355 as a street driver. Over time he eventually bought an S2000 so he didn't use the 355 all the time, and then started tracking that too, before finally giving up on all of the track cars and turned to karting. So any given chapter update could be about any of those things, depending on where you are along the timeline.

The chapters that are just about the Ferrari are 27, 38, and 50, but pretty much every update after he buys it has some commentary on what is broken now, and how much it is costing him to fix it. Admittedly, this blog is one of the reasons why I chose a 308!

 

You are talking about two very different cars. Do you want a "Ferrari" just for the sake of owning a Ferrari, or are you interested in these cars for what they are? 308s have a history and cache all their own. A 355 is a very different animal, with a lot of issues that are different from what you will run into with a 308. Likely not less, just different, because they are different cars.

Regardless of mileage, old cars require maintenance. Whether the car has 5K miles or 50K miles on it, after 30 years, a lot of parts are going to need replacing, like fuel lines, coolant hoses, brake lines, etc. Suspension bushings dry out. Seals dry up and leak. Even if the car is used regularly, it will require a certain amount of "sorting" to get it in shape or keep it in shape. Obviously, if someone else has done the work of updating hoses, bushing, seals, etc., you are a jump ahead.

As someone else said, buy the best car you can afford, whether it's a 308, 328, 348 or 355. And if you are not an experienced mechanic and don't know these cars, be sure to get a thorough PPI done by a Ferrari mechanic. No matter how good the car looks on the outside, there could be major and expensive problems lurking on the inside.

 

To your question:

1. $20K on a 308 series car is a virtual engine /gearbox rebuild or a full respray, re trim ... or major suspension, brakes and or electrical re build restore.

2. As many have said here - if the car was sitting for long periods - you get typical rot of hoses, brakes etc... the big, big money is with engine rebuilds, gear box, clutch, A/C and electrical - fuse box and or rewire.

3. If the car was in an accident - walk away - they are nortoriously hard to fix, and the value in the car is not there to do it right.

4. Rust on early & even Zincrox cars is a problem... again walk away... same reason above.

A sorted car means a lot of different things ... it could be concours, or it could be a solid mechanical driver ... I think one thing everyone agrees on is its not cheap keeing the car going and reliable. But its certainly not $20K a pop either.

I had my 308 engine rebuilt back in the 90's by FOA - cost was about $16k... so the engine was great but the rest of the car needed constant attention - radiator, hoses, fuel lines, AC, clutch, interior, electrical connectors - injectors, belt changes etc... it's always something!

 

Entry into Ferrari ownership is the cheapest part for these older cars. The confidence in and presentation level you desire for your car is the big hurdle you should come to terms with BEFORE purchase.

How big a "rat-trap" will I accept as owner of my car?


Miles on the clock mean by far less than how the car was taken care of during its life. A car with 5 miles on it and never touched, would be completely restored with 10's of thousands of dollars of maintenance done to it, by 99% of the members here before the new owner turned it over for the first time. It is miles and time and maintenance, TOGETHER. Miles by themselves are near meaningless UNLESS you want a museum piece, and even then ... Forget that notion.



The view from My past and extrapolated Glide-Path .........

IF you keep the car for another 20 years, odds are you will "buy" the car again in maintenance at least once, perhaps twice and MAYBE even a 3rd time if something catistrophic happens.

And that is just maintaining it as a "GOOD Driver." Bringing it to Concours Standards will likely cost more. Perhaps MUCH more. I am not going there.

I dropped $10K on just getting the interior redone. It was rotted way beyond help. All the other restoration work I have done (about another $10K in parts) will bring it up to "GOOD Driver" status. It needs about another $5K to bring it back to the condition I WANT for it. That will still be $THOUSANDS far from Concours standards.


So, since 2006 I will have (almost) bought the car AGAIN when the work I want to do is complete and have it sorted to MY SATISFACTION. And I do almost ALL my own work. Lots of dried blood (AB NEG is also EXPENSIVE stuff) on that chassis.

Then, barring any accidents or incidents, I see belt changes (I will do them about every 3 years) and tires as about the only issue that should require money and effort for the next 10+ years.


This is NOT a "cheap man's game." You MUST take care of these cars on THEIR SCHEDULE. It is really a "Pay me now, or Pay me later," endeavor. Some stretch the rules and win. Some don't. It can be affordable if you have $$$$ to begini with OR you "cut corners" properly; doing the work yourself and CORRECTLY, seeking guidance from the PROs here first, using PROPER aftermarket and (much) cheaper parts, the correct tools, etc.

We have owners here who have NEVER made over $50K annually in their lives and their cars are in FANTABULOUS condition. And have been for many years. If you have the "dive" to commit to proper ownership, it can be done.


If you are part of the "Instant Gratification Crowd" and just want a "Fire-it-Up" and "drive it like you stole it" car, do the marque(s) and yourself a BIG favor. Buy something else. Chances are these older machines will not be to your liking. NO REAL Sports Car (F-Car, Lambo, Mauser, Lotus, etc.) can take that kind of abuse. At least not for long.

Money, time and Patience with these 30-year old+ cars is not a vitrue, it is MANDITORY.


Not trying to be nasty, just offering advice from my experienced, and occasionally money-wise broke, foxhole.


Best of Luck in Your Decision.

 

I agree with Mark. If you want "plug and play" buy a modern car. Buying an old sports car -- any old sports car -- requires a resolve that it's going to need work, no matter how good it is when you buy it. It's part of the fun. If you don't see that as fun, stick with a fairly recent sports car.

And Mark's post above should definitely be added to the sticky on buying a 3x8 car. Some of the best advice anyone will ever get!!

 

A well sorted 355 should have about $50,000 in receipts on the low end and $100,000 on the high end approximately. A well sorted 308 less than half that. A 355 can easily cost $50,000 just for a good engine rebuild. The engine out 3-5year maintenance service runs 6 to 8k alone.

I recently drove a 355 myself and liked it but segments of time went by where I forgot I was in a Ferrari. In the 308 I'm constantly aware in traffic or on a back road that I'm driving a Ferrari. The experience really made me question if my next move should be a 355 or spending to upgrade my 308 engine as others have recently done on this forum.

 

Could not agree more.

I believe the single most important factor in a cars history is how it has been stored. This is probably more of an issue in a climate such as here in the UK but I would walk away from any car which has evidence of having been kept anywhere other than a proper garage which is integral with a house, or has dehumidification/heating. This is regardless of how often its been driven or its mileage.

 

I have an '83 308, an '84 Alfa GTV/6, and a '68 Chevy C10. They are all old cars (or trucks). It is true that (most) parts for the Chevy are cheaper, although it's certainly not "easier" to own than the Italians are. In fact, in many repects it's more difficult. I found the same thing with three Camaros ('69, '70, '73). In fact, I found the same thing with a string of early '80s Subarus. For the most part, the quality of materials on the Italian cars (excluding the Alfa's interior) is just plain better. I have NEVER been unable to remove a nut, bolt, hose, etc. on the Italian cars. Older Anerican and Japanese cars rapidly become a mess when it comes to disassembling things. Belts, hoses, brake lines, etc. age and deteriorate on all cars. Why do you hear about it more on "exotics?" Two reasons (I think): 1) Non-exotics are often driven a lot more, therefore they see maintenance more frequently, and 2) There are probably A LOT of people driving around in non-exotic cars that are in great need of having EVERYTHING replaced, but no one cares enough about them to worry about it. If you were to pay a dealer to actually perform EVERYTHING that 308 owners refer to as a "major" on a 30 year old Honda, I bet the labor cost wouldn't really be all that different (parts are another story).

My 308 is my most recently acquired car (almost two years now), and also my first Ferrari. In all honesty, I do get intimidated by the horse sometimes when I'm contemplating a repair, but all-in-all I've been really impressed by the reliability and relative ease of performing maintenance.

But I'm not naive... When I look at the list of future projects to tackle, I'm fully aware that there will be a lot of busted knuckles, non-understanding, broken bits, impossible to reach things, etc. I'm also glad that I have an independant shop who I trust very much that can bail me out when needed.

PS: When it comes to the lower cost of parts for the Chevy, a lot of that is driven by the aftermarket. However, a lot of the "cheap" and "easily available" parts for older American cars are really low quality junk. Finding really good non-repro, high quality stuff can be expensive for those cars as well.

A long time ago Peter Egan wrote in his "Side Glances" column in Road & Track Magazine that at the end of the day, regardless of what you change or fix, "old stuff is old stuff."

 

Then buy a Honda.

11 years after purchasing my car, I've had total expenses on the car that are very near the purchase price. I'm not including gas, insurance, tires or other normal wear items. You have to pay if you want to play.

 

First off, IMO, for a 308/328, the $20,000 claim is sometimes a little fudged to make it look like you are getting a bargain.

That said, for a 308, or a 328 for that matter, but mostly a 308 because they are older, didn't have great rust protection, had more issues from the factory, etc., a car that has been neglected over the years, an owner could spend $20,000 easily. But that is for a neglected car. Or, that could be $20,000 spread out over many (10-15) years.

As was mentioned, parts and labor are expensive. They just are.

Sorting should be a one time, or perhaps once every decade event. A well maintained car, that has been sorted once, shouldn't need much sorting again. Yes, the 308 did need sorting from the factory (fuse block, cooling issues, etc.). The 328 not so much but they still need sorting (fuel lines come to mind).

I recently spent $10,000 on a major for my car (328) after about seven years of ownership. I have had the belts and some other things done about five years previous to that that cost around $4000.

Based on the records, a previous owner spent about $10,000 about ten years before I bought the car. So based on all that, I would say a $10,000 hit can come every 10-15 years.

But this can be spread out over time. Hope this helps.

-F

 

I paid 27 k for my 308 six years ago and have put 3500 miles on it. It has started up and ran wonderfully every time in this period with only a replaced fan relay and a ripped steering rack boot for repairs. The radio antennae doesn't go up and that's the only thing I know that's wrong with it.

Someone may have my same car and depending on their level of expectation think it needs 25k worth of sorting.

It's somewhat relative. Owning a Ferrari is NOT for everyone. Doesn't mean those who do take the plunge are better or those that don't are better either. Just know what you may be getting into.

 

Yup... "...a lifetime of sorting costs" which the OP says he doesn't want, pretty much sums up every old car experience I've ever had.

 

Cars are like people in that they are all in various states of health. Some can be cured, some can be kept alive with expensive treatment, and some can't. It is an expensive hobby, especially if you decide like we have to take up Ferraris. I have yet to have bought a good car that checked out well that subsequently let me down. I have however bought a few bargains that turned out to be anything but.