Super Car Crashes

There by the grace of God go all of us but I have a few thoughts.

There continue to be a number of serious crashes.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345012

I wonder if upgraded wheels and tires that kept the same geometry but use more modern designed tires and TC might not be such a bad idea especially in the wet.

On P 4/5 C in the wet we use it in racing conditions and the systems we use could be fitted to any car.

 

Any car can be upgraded to be safer. But I think most owners prefer to keep their car original. Adding a home-grown TC to the F40 would be a significant and potentially dangerous update (e.g., the F40 doing something that the TC software did not predict).

Likewise for upgraded wheels and tires, but probably less so, especially if the upgraded tires were designed for the car. I use the new Pirellis on the CGT and they are years better (literally) than the old Michelins with their special soft outer thread. I think they discontinued that old tire. It was a nice try, but very dangerous, especially when cold.
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Bill

The system we use in P 4/5 C M can be fitted to anything and is easily infinitely programable. It's also totally adjustable by the driver MUCH more so than road car TC and ABS.

We could easily set up an F40 to be much easier and safer to drive at speed in the wet and could also fit tires with much more grip that what was originally used.

I understand that this would render the car non original but it could be done in a way that could be restored.

I enjoy driving original cars as they are and own several that can get you into a lot more trouble than an F 40 but some may not and should they want a little help all I'm saying is that it's something to think about.

If you wanted an F 40 with better tires, TC and ABS which some might find easier to drive in the wet at speed it could be done.

Personally I think that there are a lot of very low mileage F 40's because these cars scare some of their owners. TC, ABS and better tires would make them a bit less scary and keep more of them from being crashed.

Heresy I know.

Cheers

 

Jim,

I tend to think that providing an older car with better performing components would actually make things worse, as drivers would "upgrade" their cars and then think that they could then push harder.

This would simply raise the speed at which the driver loses control. And aside from wheel/tire upgrades, even if you could retrofit TC to an F40, a steering error on the part of the driver, even without a throttle error, will still send him into the trees. Only advanced stability control that manages individual wheels via braking can account for such errors, and even then only to a certain extent.

Just playing devil's advocate.

I would wager (tentatively) that a lot of supercar wrecks happen among owners who don't drive their cars regularly. They simply aren't familiar with what any one of their uber-powered vehicles will do. They make what they think is a reasonable push/judgement, but they wind up overdoing whatever maneuver that might be entirely.

You on the other hand...well, you're a lot more than familiar. I think I remember you saying that prior to driving any one of your cars, you take a walk around it and sit in the cockpit for a moment before starting up, as you have lots of cars with lots of character. You aclimate yourself to each one every time.

You're intentional. These cars require a lot of intentionality. Wrecks are usually unintentional...

But even then, sometimes things just go wrong.

Cheers.

 

Good points.

I am surprised by how much development changes things. P 4/5 Competizione is a lot easier to drive fast than it was initially. This involved a lot of engineering, Driver feedback and telemetry. I do think that if a driver wanted to make his F 40 a easier to drive in the wet or at speed it could be done but it would be a big undertaking and you'd have to be careful to do it in a simpatico way.

I guess the Supercar example I'm thinking of is Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina vs an Enzo.

By engineering changes we radically transformed the way the car drives, handles, cools,brakes, and turns in. It's a lot easier to drive fast. This was very evident when we drove them back to back. Thinking about F 40's I still think a tire redo might be worth trying but even that would take engineering, testing and development. Many have modified F 40's to make them faster with bigger turbos, brakes, wheels and tires. I'm simply suggesting that there may be some F 40 owners who are little scared by their cars and would enjoy and drive them more if they were developed to have a little more traction especially in the wet.

I think of my cars as helicopters and drive them with appropriate caution and concentration and maybe that's all that's needed with an F 40. Food for thought.

Cheers

 

Great thread.

 

All of these cars regardless of age have traction control. Some versions work better than others. Don't interfere with Darwin's work.
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A translation of the German F40 crash says that this was the drivers new car so the chances are he wasn't used to the power delivery of the F40 and applied too much throttle at a point when he shouldn't have.

(I suspect he probably down-shifted for the bend and reapplied the throttle not realising that the turbo's had spooled up and were giving a lot more power than before the gearchange).

 

I think TC and any assisted computer is worth the investigation. Driving a Ferrari when you are not used to it is scary, counter to the point though. It was that being excited, and three seconds later in the higher gears being scared that makes you stop and think you are not playing an Arcade game.

I guess it's a generation thing. I grew up learning to drive a manual gearbox and clutch on a computer game before driving a 'real' one. I've always defended learning to drive on simulations as worthwhile - a lot I could explain about camber, turn-in, brake lock and fade before ever taking any car over 100.

On the reverse, it's more and more common people learn to drive in automatics with some form of ABS, and at least power steering. I don't mind driving a modern Ferrari V8 with all the computers on. I know what they do and what they stop me from doing and I like that. (no.. everything but the 'Auto' button)

I don't push hard because they are there - but I doubt many people approach it thinking that way. I did have a GTi at one stage that wouldn't let me give the car power under a tight corner at low speed. The computer and I argued about it a lot, I wanted a loose front end, it didn't want to let me - and I quickly developed a bad habit of holding flat, waiting for the computer and steering. I did end up calming down and getting myself out of the 'drive with my computer the co-pilot' habit once I had some time to think about what doing that in an older car would do.

Jim if I do have more luck in my industry in the next few years and pick up an F40, 288 or something similar from my childhood toys - will come back to this thread and prod you for some prices. As for keeping the cars original, used to hear a good one at historics for that in BNE.

"If you are determined to go all original, put a leather hat and goggles on. If you bought your club helmet with you - go get yourself some new rubber, pad, hoses and anything else that will stop me having to clean up bits of you later on in the day"

 

The systems we use are plug an play. When we last tested P 4/5 C we cranked out aero for more VMAX and changed tires for more mechanical grip. Our Drivers were a lot faster and one (who's won F1 races) remarked that the car was easier to drive and the TC never came on. The telemetry showed that it had but it was so smooth that he never noticed it.

 

I agree

 

Any powerful old school turbo car will have extremely non-linear power delivery. The first time you drive on in the wet will educate you. Unfortunately you might not get a passing grade on that first test and wreak your machine. I think in these cases it would be a very good idea.

The explosive increase in torque is dangerous and you learn to respect it immediately. A well set up car would be faster and smoother and safer to drive in the wet especially. I know there are engine control based TC systems, seems like you could integrate one pretty easily without hacking the car.

That with modern tires would make a much superior package and safe too as it is not going to increase the car's ultimate acceleration potential much as you are adding traction and control rather than power.

Not to mention if you are concerned about originality you will retain a lot more of that than if you wrap your car around a pole or a tree and have to rebuild it and explain to future buyers that the car is OK, in spite of the pictures of the wreak on Fchat : )

 

Jim, just to provide context, can you provide an estimate of what a plug and play traction control system in an F40 might cost? Including the engineering time to set it up properly? I for one don't have even the vaguest idea. Thanks. Simon

 

A lot of 40s haven't seen much mechanical attention (or the wrong mechanical attention) and run like crap. The lag is huge and the boost is binary, which can get you into trouble. A well sorted out car is more predictable and a lot easier to drive fast. First thing I would do is get a qualified mechanic to go through the electrical, injectors and timing. The newer turbo's also make a huge difference in linearity. Some better tires are not a bad idea. Not sure if TC is really needed after all that. The comment about seat time is very valid.

 

The whole point IMO of the F40 is that it scares you and I would sell my left testicle to own one, BUT as I've said before I cannot understand why anybody makes supercars. They are completely pointless and share the same road with families going from A to B, and other drivers with varying ability ... add on top of that add some rich people that can afford a supercar but cannot drive any better than Joe Blog and you have a very dangerous recipe.

Even the current production range of Ferraris are simply too fast. There is absolutely no need for any of them to go over 150mph and yet they can all top 200 ... honestly how small are some of our penis's ...

All these companies should go and look seriously at a 246 Dino, an Alfa Romeo 1750GTV and even a Mark 1 Ford Escort and be reminded about what driver enjoyment and involvement is all about. You don't need to win the pimple faced teenager magazine performance articles, instead you need to celebrate the pure enjoyment of driving and cornering.

I'm starting to wonder if Mazda is the only company in the world that actually understands what driver enjoyment is about, as when they made the latest Miata/MX5 they made the chassis dynamics NO better than the older model because its fun to drive and apparently slides around nicely.

Ferrari should stop this wanking and get back to proper sportscar racing (such as the 250LM and P4) and making road cars that are suited to being road cars, like the 250GT 2+2 was. I'm pretty sure Enzo was not a wanker ... but since then the gold chain, small penis (?) brigade has been running his company.
Pete

 

Less than writing one off.

We used Bosch ABS.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/documentation/abs_m4_manual_en.pdf

and MoTec TC

http://www.motec.com/support/faqsfsae/

Good ideas from FreFan and Sunracer.

 

Would you not get weird boost problems with a turbo charged engine and traction control, assuming it is implemented by cutting spark?

Also while this accident probably was not caused by corner entry speed issues, nothing stops an accident from lack of judgement on entry speed. The old saying: "Slow in and fast out" is required on the road.
Pete

 

A lot of Turbo Cars have TC.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
Would you not get weird boost problems with a turbo charged engine and traction control, assuming it is implemented by cutting spark?

Also while this accident probably was not caused by corner entry speed issues, nothing stops an accident from lack of judgement on entry speed. The old saying: "Slow in and fast out" is required on the road.
Pete
A lot of Turbo Cars have TC.


My reference was to cars like the F40, early 911 Turbo, Maserati 228 (the car that gave me my exciting lesson) etc. that predate the integrated traction and stability control systems that we see on most all modern cars now. A friend of mine that raced circle track midgets and sprint cars told me they had spark based systems that tracked the rate of increase in RPM to detect wheel spin and then acted on the ignition system. They were less than $10K installed IIRC.

TC is usually implemented by retarding timing and or cutting spark, activating the brakes using ABS to detect wheel spin, but I think in a turbo app cutting fuel would probably be a possibility too though not as smooth as the other solutions. Seems like it wouldn't be too challenging on a car with electronic injection or even just an electric pump.

Point bei9ng it could be done without spending a fortune I would think.

 

Exciting times in the Supercar/GT3 race in Macau last weekend

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz0hYeW7vm8&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

 

IMO investing in driving school would be more productive than TC. Traction control makes people think they can drive.

 

TC and ABS are used on many modern race cars.

 

The technicians Ferrari trained on the F40 systems are getting in short supply as are the cars.

That's a very sad picture.

I'm not sure ANY high performance car belongs on the public road any more.

I missed an accident yesterday by only "INCHES" (with no exit path either, it was 'stop or smash everything"...the other motorist a Honda minivan, was crossing four lanes of stopped traffic USING THE TRAIN TRACK!

It made me want to go park it, and sell it.

Cleaning it later I changed my mind.

There is not telling "without details" to say if this driver "wrecked his car" or if someone else did him the favor!

 

What part of 'waved yellow flags' do these guys not understand?

 

i think jim has a point about some of those low mile supercars but not all.
these owners are either just collecting for bragging rights and potential financial upside, or they are too scared to drive them at even 7/10ths (which is all i have ever done in my own f40), or both.
on the other hand, i dont think this type of person would do much more if the f40 was easier to drive, since an enzo or a veyron for example have all these driver aids and yet low mileage ones exist as well.

i for one, would like to just keep the f40's without any driver aids - take lessons and learn to drive better. and in the meantime maintain a healthy respect for the car and its compulsion to kill you.