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supercharging a 308QV

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by WILLIAM H, Apr 4, 2004.

  1. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
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    My 308QV needs more hp. Who has supercharged their 308 & which system works best ?

    The engine temp is very high now so I wont even bother thinking about turbos
     
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  3. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Mark Eberhardt (mk_e) in PA has about 600 hp from his supercharged 308 - he is the enlightened bagwan on the topic of how to do this.
     
  4. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Wow!!!! thats a lot of hp. Has the transmission exploded yet ? :) I'd be happy w 400 hp
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Not yet, the kevlar clutch did, but the trans is still fine. I'm still sorting out a few bugs, so I haven't gotten to reall abuse it yet. Here's a couple threads I posted while working on it that might be of interest to you.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/315437.html
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/324659.html
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4309
     
  6. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Thanks, How far are you from the Poconos ? I'm thinking of sending the 308 to the apint shop to repaint her Azzuro blue.
     
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  8. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Great looking car. Where did you place the intercooler ? Did you do all the work yourself or which shop did it ? Now that youve done it all which supercharger would you advise ? Who built your intake plenum ?
    Thanks
     
  9. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    He's got a air-water-air intercooler system.
    The cooling element is inside the 'plenum', the 'radiator' element is fwd. One of the threads has pix incl mounting the elec. pump for the coolant.

    I've been drooling over that setup. 350-400 hp would be soooo sweeet. Not to mention I could give my son's hopped up '93 Rx7 a run for it's money...
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Thanks. It uses a water/air intercooler. the actual intercool is in the intake, then I mounted 2 small radiators (9x21) in the front valance. I used a GTO valance mostly because it looks good, but also, without the driving light, it has a lot more grill area to get air to them.

    Yes, I did all the work myself.

    I thing that a positive displacement type is the only way to go. There one you pick depends on how much power you want to make. If the goal is 400, you should be able to do it at about 12-14 psi without an intercooler. I like the lysholm screw type blowers (often called a whipple in the US, they are the importer, but calling around to dealers will get you a better price) for very high boost, but an autorotor is also a good chioce up to about 15 psi or so. A lysholm or autorotor spinning 1600 flat-out should do it, but a 2300 might be a better choice. The smaller blower will give you more boost below about 3500 rpm, but maybe a touch less peak hp, but you'll need to drive it right to it's redline (15000 rpm)and probably fit it with oil lines, which are required above 13000 rpm. The 2300 will only need to spin to about 10500 to pump the same air, very safe, but below 4000 rpm, the efficency really drops off. I'd guess you'll see maybe 1/2 total boost off idle building smoothly to full boost by 4000 with the 2300, the 1600 will probably give you 2/3 boost off idle and full boost by 3000.

    I designed and build the intake.

    About 100 miles depending where in the poconos.
     
  11. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Mark.

    Have you ever gotten specs on the performance stats for your car ? 0-60 or 1/4mile times, and how does the chassis handle that much power?
     
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  13. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    No good performance numbers yet. I got it running late last fall just in time to put it away. I'm planning to get on a dyno at the end of this month or early next month. I've been strugling with a fuel injection glitch, but I think I've got it figured out and am just waiting for parts. This is my second supercharger on the car, the first one was a non-intercooled roots type blower and made 304 rwhp @10psi (with a manifold air temp of 260+F), so maybe 350-360 crank. The new system is at 22 psi with a temp of 120F, so it makes a lot more power. 0-60 times are completely limited by traction since pushing the throttle to the floor in 1st or 2nd gear makes the tires spin (285s), at least that was true on a 60F day, it might stick better in the summer. Also, I installed better shocks and much stiffer springs, with this set-up the chassis doesn't seem to do anything bad.
     
  14. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Thankls for the info. Are you going to the Belle Macchine event at Pocono end of June or the other event end of May ? I will be at both
     
  15. atheyg

    atheyg Guest


    Thanks Mark,

    The car will be a blast and haul some azz after you get it set up!
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    No, I think I'll have to pass…I’m afraid of race tracks…well not the track so much as the guardrails and cement barriers. After several years of motorcycle roadracing, I came to understand that it’s really not a question of if you will crash, it’s a question of when you will crash, and honestly, I just can’t afford to risk totaling the car. I will however be at this autocross as long as I’ve got the fuel injection sorted out by then, I don’t find cones anywhere near as scary as guardrails. I’m going to try to get to a drag strip too at some point, but I don’t see a roadrace track in my future at this point.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12342
     
  17. ExcelsiorZ

    ExcelsiorZ Formula 3
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    Nov 7, 2003
    1,120
    Beverly Hills
    Hello,
    Mark's system is truly a work of art. We too have developed a supercharger system. Its more of a bolt on system whereby the supercharger sits over the rear bank of cyl. You retain your stock intake plenum and no modification to engine cooling system is required. We use the Electromotive Tec III computer controlled electronic fuel injection with direct fire ignition. (This alone gives much improved HP and driveability and reduced emissions) Currently the system is being run around town here in LA on a Mondial and the results are impressive. Have you ever seen a mondial light up its rear wheels with ease! It runs stock compression and boost is limited to 10 pounds. More than this and you will need to upgrade internal engine components. The nice thing about this system is it is a bolt on system and later, if you so choose, can be unbolted leaving a stock appearance. We too use the twin screw supercharger but do not purchase from Whipple. I have found them to be very unprofessional and with terrible customer service.
     
  18. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Well don't just tease us, pictures please :)

    I found the same thing, I will not deal with them again. The problem is that the lysholm compressor is really the best for high boost and they are the exclusive US importer. Some of the dealer are quite good and actually cheaper than whipple...even after going back and forth on 2 blowers and ICs.

    Which compressor are you using? Are you running a by-pass valve?

    For what it's worth, my engine is stock inside at 22 psi except for the valve springs, Norwood told me the stock ones are good to 18 psi. So I say, turn up the boost!
     
  19. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Whats the name of your shop ? Can you make 400hp plus w a 308QV ?
    How much for the system ? Is it intercooled & if so where do you mount the intercooler ? Thanks
     
  20. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Shame you arenot going to track your car. If you want come by & I'll see if I can take you for a ride in my 512TR racer. 2800# & near 500hp :) I think she does around 180 down the back straight & she has a nice sturdy roll cage, fuel cell & fire supression system, Just in case
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I might stop up, time and wife permitting :)

    I've got a spread sheet I wrote to help predict hp at what boost for a supercharged engine. If you want, I can email it to you.

    Anyway, with a screw type blower it says on an 80F day:
    10 psi, no intercooler, the inlet air temp will be 220F and 370 hp (320rwhp)
    12 psi, no IC, inlet air temp 230F, 396hp (340 rwhp)
    10 psi with a very good IC, the inlet air temp will be 100, 450hp (390 rwhp)
    12 psi with a very good IC, the inlet air temp will be 102, 485hp (418 rwhp)
    15 psi with a very good IC, the inlet air temp will be 102, 534hp (460 rwhp)
    20 psi with a very good IC, the inlet air temp will be 118, 615hp (530 rwhp)

    I think 400 is about the limit for a 1600 size blower. If you want more you'll need a bigger one.
     
  22. ExcelsiorZ

    ExcelsiorZ Formula 3
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    Nov 7, 2003
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    I'll post photos as soon as the original prototype is done. After that, we are having parts cast and replicated in numbers.

    Regarding lysholm chargers, whipple is NOT the sole importer for these twin screw style chargers. There are in fact two manufacturers of these types of superchargers, both of which are in northern Europe. I'm now distributing one of these for Ferrari applications. Autorotor manufactures a twin screw/lysholm charger. Its just like the "whipple" without dealing with whipple's B.S.

    We are running a BOV and will also be installing a bypass valve.

    You're running stock headgaskets, stock pistons and stock rings with 22 psi? For how long/many miles?
     
  23. ExcelsiorZ

    ExcelsiorZ Formula 3
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    Nov 7, 2003
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    The shop is Black Horse in Los Angeles. The HP is just a question of boost. We're still tuning the injection/ignition to maximize power. The lysholm charger is very efficient. If boost is ten pounds or less intercooler is nice but not mandatory. Above that cooler is required. Final price is still to be deterimined. It will include computer controlled electronic fuel injection and igniation as well as the supercharger.
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Whipple is the sole importer for lysholm (now owned by eaton). Autorotor is a similar design and a very nice piece. The lysholm has an internal compression ratio of 1.35:1, the autorotor is 1.2:1, (a roots is 1:1), so they are somewhat different. For a system of 5-15 psi, I think the autorotor is probably the best chioce, that's where it shines. Roots for 1-5psi, lysholm 15-30 psi,they will all work outside this range, but that is where they are best. I think you could wring 20 psi or so out of an auotrotor, it would just be a little hotter discharge than the lysholm.

    It probably depends a little on what gas you can buy too. On the east coast, 93 and 94 octane are readily available. My first system was a roots at 10 psi, no cooler with a manifold temp of 260+F (I don't know the exact number because the senor reads a fault condition above 260) and it worked without detonation. With a screw type compressor, 12-15 should be OK. Iran mine around for a week or so at 12, then another week at 15 before I got the intercooler cooling loop connected and it seemed fine.

    I've only got about 500 miles on it since kicking the boost up, so something could still go wrong, but for now everything seems fine. I got it running in very late fall and spring hasn't really come yet and I've been struggling with a couple fuel injection problems. The stock pistons and gaskets are very good. They're pretty much the same parts that are in the 288 and F40 and they work. I don't think I would try much more...and luckily I'm already spinning the blower to 15200, 200 rpm over the maximum so I won't be able to find out just how high it will go without exploding. I can tell you that the stock clutch will not be happy much over 300 hp. I ran a heavy pressure plate and a kevlar disc for about 15k miles with the old set-up without a problem. The new system absolutely melted it in under 500. I know you can get even heavier pressure plates made, but I also know that TURBOQV whose running a 15 psi turbo fried his custom made and sized kevlar clutch too. I'm trying a tilton triple-disc carbon-carbon this year, I haven't had it out yet though because I'm holding on some FI parts. Very smoft pedal though, much softer than stock.
     
  25. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
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    Is this setup for just the 4V engines, or will it work with 2V as well?
     
  26. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I'm currently building one for a guy with a 2v...although much slower than I planned due to a work crisis and home projects. I like to mount the compressor on top of the engine mainly because I think it looks better and that is what I’m deigning/building for the guy. I guess it does have less volume which will give better throttle response, although I seriously doubt it would be noticeably better than the side mount type system like ExcelsiorZ is talking about. I would think that most of the parts for the side mount system will work on a 2V or 4V except the actual compressor mounts, but that would not be too hard to alter or custom make. You’ll need a 2Vi intake though, but they are easy to come by. The pulley ratios would be slightly different too I would suspect….a 2v motor needs more timing than a 4v which makes then more prone to detonation plus the stock compression ratio is high, so again less boost is allowed. I would guess that on 93 octane with a screw type blower and no IC 8 to maybe 10 psi. Add a good intercooler and 15 should work. Subject 1-2 psi for 91 octane. Also, a 2vi engine has much less stock hp than an early carb or QV engine, so it won’t make as much hp on boost either without changing the cams.
     

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