Mike It depends on where you have your shocks and springs set, and how you like it to feel. I'd start full soft on both ends, try it, then stiffen the front, try it, stiffen rear, try it etc. Do F before R so that you don't get too much oversteer -- too much rear bar on the street (or track) is not usually a "happy" situation. I'll run the bars full hard at the track. Philip
Thanks for the advice. We'll do as you suggest and start with the softer setting, which should still be considerably stiffer than stock because of the thicker bars.
You need to pick a better point than the fender to set your ride height. Pick a point off the frame lower to the ground and see if it still has reversed rake. The frame pick up point for the lower A-arms would be a good spot.
As we were taking apart the front end today, I was surprised how light the new big rotors are. The aluminum hats really make BIG difference. The big Brembo rotors are lighter than the smaller stock rotors, and maybe even slightly lighter than my stock-sized Brembo drilled rotors. Likewise for the new shock/spring combination compared to the old Konis. We didn't have a scale handy, but I may take one down to the shop on Monday so we can do some actual weight comparisons with some numbers. Everything is disassembled now, but the new parts haven't been put on yet.
Weighed it out this morning... I was surprised to find that the Brembo big front rotors are each about 3.5 pounds lighter than the *smaller* stock rotors. The Varishock/spring combos are about 6 pounds lighter PER CORNER than the stock Konis (originally about 14 lbs and now going down to 8 lbs). That's some nice unsprung weight reduction.
Amen As for the brake rotors, the weight is also a bit further away from the center line so someone here could do the complicated math to see if there really is a TRUE weight savings. Rotational mass and it's positioning accordingly... MAJOR congrats and keep losing weight
Here's the original pics again that were hosed in the FChat server crash: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
The math isn't hard, it's pi/64(D^4-d^4)m, but it only applies in rotory acceleration. For motion up and down, it's just simply the mass.
Hi Mike, I noticed the thread and saw the above picture of your brake kit. I wanted to add in that the bells and rotors are not the Brembo designed items. The calipers are the same ones used in the Brembo kit, but the drill pattern in the rotors is not a Brembo type and the brake bells do not have the correct radius or design. The rotors may be Brembo units, I cannot tell. I dont know who manufactured the bells or rotors, as I understand they came from Canada. I am not commenting on the quality of the parts, they may be fine or even better than the Brembo, but I dont want you to be ripped off either. I am sending a picture of the brembo parts, stocked and sold out of California. Notice the drill pattern and the radius at the wheel mount on the bell. A quick way to tell is also that the Brembo part has 3 pockets milled in the back of the bell for weight reduction. I hope I am not telling you things you know, I just dont want you to think you are buying a Brembo kit if you are not. Eric Image Unavailable, Please Login
Eric, I appreciate your input and comments. Maybe they've been changed as far as the design goes since you were there... difficult to tell for sure. The parts were in Brembo-marked boxes, with all Brembo-appearing documentation, "Brembo" on the calipers, all parts in a single box per side, though the set was distributed and shipped via Stillen (www.stillen.com). I arranged the purchase through Elite Auto in Canada, but the items were shipped to me from Stillen in the U.S., which I was aware of before doing the deal. I suppose it's possible that Stillen subsitutes their own hats/bells? Or they also look like the ones from AP Racing. Image Unavailable, Please Login
GTO84, your Brembo rotor drill pattern are different than my previous ones before the big brake kit... I guess there's not always consistency! Mine were also gold anodized, which yours don't appear to be. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Those are gold cadmium. Mine are silver cadmium. They have the same 3-2-3-2-3 drill pattern. Also the holes can be radiused or chamfered straight. The non radiused holes have chamfers. Drilled is good for the street, Slotted for track.
I think mine came from elite auto too. Mine were from canada. The drilling is different for each type of internal rotor vane. Post, directional fan and straight.
Hi Mike, What you have is a hybrid system designed and sold by Stillen. The rotors are AP, and the bells are made by stillen to AP specs. The calipers are brembos, the same 36/40 units used in the Brembo kits. The spec from Brembo hasnt changed since I left. I still yap with those guys often. The OE replacement rotors are drilled by RaceTechnologies, not Brembo. RT is the master distributor for Brembo in USA and does some drilling work on their own. All of which is fine, and the quality is comparable. Your kit is every bity as good as the Brembo kit, so no worries there. And you saved a couple bucks by not paying the "Italian Overhead" Enjoy! Eric Eric
Mike, When are you going to mount up all this hardware and let us know if the shocks fit without modification to the A arms? Birdman
I've already started... the A-Arms DO have to be modified as per other threads and as per the pictures here. Unless you can find a custom shock that has an extended spring perch (and I haven't... even the ones sold by Nick's Forza and others are similar to the Varishocks and QA-1s we've seen discussed on FChat), some amount of extra clearance in the upper front A-arms is going to be required. However, it's really not that big of a deal. There is no problem with the rears--- they're plug and play. Below are some pics. I also put a picture in that shows the small ES urethane rack mount bushings -- my steering was a little sloppy, but it didn't require a rebuild after all... all it needed was 4 bushings at less than $5 each (I'm so grateful for having an honest mechanic!!). Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Mike the bars and shock/springs look very substantial - is that one of your pistons in the last photo??? Were there any signs of deterioration in your rack bushings?? I have a fairly lose feel in the front end, but assumed it was the Michelin "energy" 185/70 stock replacements. My rack bushings looked ok, so I left them in when doing the front end. Did the shocks fit without sleeves or spacers?? With malice aforethought, I remain chris
I'm really looking forward to improved handling... not that it was bad in for its age anyway, but this brings it up to modern standards. Thankfully NOT. No engine work this time around... I presumed the loose feel I had would require a rack rebuild or replacement. As it was, the rackmount bushings looked ok from a mild distance, but up close they were indeed deteriorating. If you grabbed the rack to move it, you could see they were giving out. They came with replacement 7/16" ferrules (I don't know why Varishock will supply them but won't install them in the mounting heads -- you have to do it yourself, but that's no big deal... just press or hammer out the 1/2" old ones and press or hammer in the new 7/16" ones and ream them to the proper 12mm). I did have 11mm width spacers made by a friend with a machine shop... he did it for free as a favor to me, but he'd normally only charge $5 each so the 8 would only be $40 anyway. I considered splitting the size and having 16 made, but I got multiple "second opinions" and they all said that there was no geometry issue in putting a spacer on just one side of the shock rather than having it centered between two spacers. Mike
Holidays are over so it's back to work on the car. The Brembo/Stillen brake setup went on perfectly and is clearly very high quality. I couldn't be more pleased. There was a couple of days delay as the adapter fittings for the SS lines to attach to the calipers had been left out of the package, but the company shipped them right away as soon as they were notified. Image Unavailable, Please Login
The front stabilizer bar was NOT as plug-and-play as it was supposed to be. After talking with John at Saner Fab Performance, the 3-way adjustable bar is a "new design", and it doesn't properly fit on my 308QV. As you can see from the pic below, it interferes with the steering. *Maybe* it would clear when the car is put back on the ground... but that is still not acceptable from a safety standpoint... it's possible that you could have a wheel drop or raise while cornering and you'd be in trouble and break something here. We're working with John to determine what the issue is... I may have to send him off my oem bar and have him create a new 1.0" front bar from it. You can see that the oem front bar has a strong "S" curve to it to help it clear the steering components, and the current Saner bar does not. John thinks that it may possibly also require a different link. As you look at the oem anti-roll bars, it highlights how realitively whimpy they are compared to the heavier stabilizer bars from Saner! I'm really looking forward to feeling the difference. If it hadn't been for this issue, the car would be back on the road already!! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Someone asked me in a PM about the spacers I had machined. Below is a picture... basically 11mm thick, 13mm (= 0.5") ID (though 12mm would have been fine, I decided to make it 1mm oversize since it doesn't carry load in that direction anyway), and 1.5" OD. If you look at the picture in the post just above this that is also showing the ARB interference, you can see the spacer on the far side of the lower mount. They worked perfectly. Image Unavailable, Please Login
An update: The "mystery" of the anti-roll bar vs. steering arm clearance has been figured out. I had John at Saner make a custom 1" bar to exactly match my OEM bar's curve (he was VERY helpful), thinking that would solve the issue... and then found that there is still a clearance problem at full droop. After THAT, here's what we figured out... the front Varishocks that were sent have about 1" more maximum extension than the Konis, so at full droop it allows the A-Arms to pull the steering linkage to where there's a clearance problem with the anti-roll bar if you have the wheel turned much... doesn't matter whether it's the stock bar or the Saner bar! At normal ride it's fine, but it's still not ideal from an absolute design safety point of view. A circumstance where your wheels are at full droop while in an ultra sharp turn would be very rare (BIG pothole while at nearly full lock in a parking lot?) but if that DID happen, you'd break your steering. The Varishock part numbers we used are 11122-515 fronts, and 11122-615 rears. The QA1 springs are 10.300# fronts and 12.250# rears. The Varishock fronts are 16.1" at extended length with 5.15" travel. The Konis extended are about 15". The Varishock spec/reference page is at http://www.varishock.com/DataSheets/VAS_111XX_DS_WEB.pdf The QA1 shocks (I like the Varishocks better because of the larger/stronger mounting head) used by others on FChat were the -4855P's for the fronts, which have a 14.0" extended length. The Varishock with similar specs would have been their 11122-425 for the fronts which has a 14.6" extended length, closer to the original Konis.
