Looks like I have a spring project now
No fair!!! I only put on the Brembos so I could keep up with you at the track, and I did the suspension so I could out-handle you! If we've got the same setup, then I won't be able to make up for the fact that you're a better driver than me!!!
Finally got the car back today... I really like the look of the new lower ride height. And with those 300# springs in the front, I'm unlikely to have a problem with tire rub; if I press down on the front bumper it hardly moves. The 250# springs in the back, though, have a fair amount of give when you push down on the rear bumper. But with those fronts, I definitely won't have to worry about nose-diving during hard braking on the track. And the new Brembo's should really add some stopping power. I think I'm going to change the shock setting though... we started at 5 clicks off softest (out of 16) and the drive home front the shop was a kidney-buster. Well, not THAT bad, but certainly not as smooth or comfortable as the stock setup. I'm going to try lightening up the shocks a bit, especially since they're new, and I can always set them harder later if I choose to. The way it is now is probably good for the track, but a bit too hard a feel for street ride comfort. If changing the shock setting doesn't do it, I may have to go to lighter springs, but I'm hoping not. But the shocks and springs combined with the bigger anti-roll bars make the car AMAZING going around curves. Not that it was bad before, but now it is EXCEPTIONAL. Well worth it!!
Nice to see that you have the car back on the road again Mike. I plan on getting mine back together here in the coming weeks. I am really expecting a huge improvement with everything I have done this winter: Varishock setup, spring(300fr-250re), sway bars, bushings, and getting rid of those crappy 390mm wheels for some Compomotive gto 17" style wheels. I can hardly wait!! Please let me know how your shake down of the current set up progresses. I am already thinking of getting a different spring combo if the 300/250 combo proves to be to stiff for the street. Any ideas of what you may try? Bill
Several FChat folks have been happy with the 300/250 combo for aggressive street or streettrack combo, and some have even suggested going stiffer than that, so I'm hoping that playing with the shock adjustment will be sufficient. Otherwise, I'll go down to 250/200. The 250# now on the rear feels noticeably firmer than stock when pushing down on the rear bumper, but it still has "adequate" give, where the front currently has almost no give.
I had a chance to play with it today... it's GREAT to have adjustable shocks! I can change the settings on both fronts in less than 2 minutes total without crawling under the car and I'm on the road again. The backs are almost as quick, but they require laying on the ground and being a bit of a contortionist. The guy I bought the shocks and springs had suggested the opposite, but I'm convinced that the advice I received (and followed) from FChat folks to use "stronger springs, softer shocks" is definitely the way to go. I softened the settings on the Varishocks to 3 clicks from softest (which *is* what they suggested as a starting point in their installation guide, but I was too macho and started on #5) is just right with the new springs. It's amazing what a difference a couple of clicks make. If I take the fronts down to setting #2, the ride comfort comes very near to the stock setup, but with the advantage of the stiffer spring rate. I'll probably take it back up to #5 for track days since it's such a quick change. Happy camper here!
Great news Mike! Looks like I will start off with 3 clicks. By the way, What kind of ground clearance are you running? I certainly want to lower the ride height from stock with out getting to low for real world driving. I am leaning towards setting up the ride height so that I can get roughly 5" from the Euro dam to the ground. What do you think? Can you go lower with out getting into to much trouble? Thanks Bill
My mechanic actually set the front slightly lower than I had asked, but so far it's fine driving it today, and I'm extra careful going into driveways, etc. He set it to as low as it could practically go based on spring length. I had asked for 25-5/8" from the ground to the top of the wheel well openings for all four corners. Yeah, I know that's not how you're supposed to measure, but that's how I decided to do it since it's that tire-to-wheel gap I wanted to reduce. I do have 25-5/8" now in the rear wells, but the front is 25-1/4". It looks GREAT, but that's probably a bit too low. Since you're concerned about your euro spoiler, I just measured and that that puts mine at 4-5/8" clearance. Adjusting the front height at the fender wells up 3/8" to where I originally wanted it should just about bring the front spoiler clearance to 5". Tomorrow I get a 4-wheel alignment, and then I'm going to drive the car probably 60-100 miles around some country roads on Saturday so I can see where it settles (which will also let me get the brakes bedded in well), and then sometime soon I'll have the front raised up to that level. I might wait until after track day at Barber Motorsports next Saturday March 5. Driving around today, I didn't hit the spoiler at all, but I *did* actually barely rub one of the lower body-ridge/chassis seams coming slowly straight out of my crested driveway. I always go *in* my driveway at an angle, but used to be able to exit straight out. If you look from the side at our cars, the chassis clearance is actually is quite a bit less than the euro spoiler clearance... it's just not normally a problem unless you're in that exact situation.
Glad your back on the road !! I know it's been a LONG time coming, give us a report when you really break her in
I was wondering about that spoiler of yours (I finally swapped mine last year). If you really want precision what you should do tomorrow is sit in it while they do the alignment. That way they can dial in the proper degrees with your weight in the seat. I'll look around here for the specs that Ron set my car up with last year. I think he thru in a little extra neg camber. What ever it was it helped.
I would be very interested in the method used to set the heights/corner weights before the alignment. It looks like there is a lot interest in the aftermarket shocks with the ability to firm up the ride by installing higher rate springs. With stiffer springs and the threaded bottom spring mounts, I am thinking that it is even more important to get the corner weights somewhat close before trying to set camber and caster. How have you guys set the height/weight with the new springs/shocks. I have yet to come up with an acceptable method that doesn't involve a set of scales? Carefully measuring the installed height of the spring is a bit dubious. Getting them "snug" and throwing them on the car got me a couple of inches of ground clearance and a pulled fender lip - not too satisfactory. So, what's a guy to do???? plead with a circle track guy to borrow some scales or does anyone have a bit of magic, (engineering/technology)?? Sorry to drift off the thread, but i have been vexed. Mike, it looks hot. ??? chris
Thanks for the Tip Mike, I will give that a try. Chris, I have been asking myself the same questions. I know just enough to think I know what I am doing and get myself into all kinds of trouble? LOL My plan for setting intial ride height (spring position) has been some what of a concern until MCharness posted a pic in this thread. If you look at the mounted front and rear shock you can get an idea of where to intially set the movable collar for the spring. I can tell you that I would have been way off had he not posted those pics. I would have had a very low rider. Mike and I have the same shock\spring combo so I should be in the ball park. Once I get the car on the ground I will play with the ride height by measuring from the frame rails to the ground to get the clearance and look that I want. I do not plan on tracking my car alot and from what I have read on this board it seems that getting the car corner wheighted may be a bit of over kill if all you are doing is spirited street driving. Of coarse having everything set up correctly from the beginning will really help dial in the suspension set up, so I am not sure what I will do. Question for the forum. Where should I intially place my front wheel shims (4) top and bottom on the ball joints? I am not sure if that effects castor or camber? I am just trying to ball park the setup so I can get the car to the shop for an alignment. My suspension bushing where a mess and the front right side bottom shims (4) where all on the rear side of the lower ball joint. Bill
Here's some quick pics of the lowered stance I just took before it's going to the the alignment shop this morning. Also notice how the Brembo kit fills the stock QV wheels. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
i'll take a go at this... Basically, have your weight plus 10 lbs or so (race suit/helmet/etc) in the driver's seat with the car 'wet' and 1/2 tank of gas. The point for me was to have the front Euro deep aero 3.75-inches off the ground. Your descision on front ride height/clearance may be different. unhook front and rear anti-sway/roll as having them hooked up WILL cause weight/height measuring complications flat surface, corner weighting devices in place it is a balance and those with PURE race cars usually want around 60% rear weight bias. For the road a 50/50 weight distribution is fine. Bottom line: tune weight as you wish, yet this is adjustable (per se) if you play around with the ride height AFTER tuning. The point being in getting a 'known good' initial setting adjust ride height on all corners to achieve the weight distribution you desire with the front ride height you desire (naturally the car's overall height is dependant on weight distribution desired). reconnect the front and rear anti-sway/roll. Ok, one could argue we have not considered the ACTUAL aerodynamics/downforce IN ACTION that change the weight distribution at certain speeds... This is just some basics and my humble 2 Yen. Your milage may vary. NOTE: first pic below shows OLD (high) stock height versus lower (corner weighed) height Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Bill, Am PARAPHRASING a private e-mail i received so this IS NOT my data, though a 'known good' from someone who appears to remain a silent lurker. This data was received via private e-mail about a year ago and i gave it to my alignment guy: Caster - Standard settings for 308 are 1 degree or so though 328 specs are 4 degrees due to the 328 having 16-inch tires versus the 308's smaller diameter. The 4 degrees may be achievable by moving the shims where the upright connects to the A-Arm at both top and bottom. (read: move all the shims at the top to the front and all the shims at the bottom to the rear). This increases camber during turn in though the self-centering is greater so expect higher efforts in steering. Camber - get a Pyrometer and after spirited drives measure the temps across the tire. Final outcome may be around 2 degrees negative front and 1 neg at the rear. Only possible problem... the standard bits that connect the wishbone to the chassis are too short! Lengthen the bolts via welding or the like. Toe-In - Straight ahead front and rear or choose a slight bit of toe-in... your call. Again, the above data IS NOT mine though was used during setting up of the 1985 Euro 308 here. The original author appears to desire remaining silent and i will honer their privacy. Many people both on this board, other boards, various shops, and various private e-mails have GREATLY assisted in the final setup of the 308 here. Would like to truly thank EVERYONE for ALL their assistance. It is truly appreciated.
Chris A lot of this comes down to how you are planning to use the car. With the OEM set up, the car is stable but ploughs (understeers) when pushed. It is also predictable - lift and it tends to tuck in. This is safe. Great for the street. The ride is comfortable on mid-western roads and ok, but not great at the track. When you move away from the OEM set up you are going to get a different vehicle dynamic. You may "like" the results, you may not - more positive turn in may be accompanied by a feeling of wandering or dartiness on rutted streets etc. Your experience level may not be up to the ultimate track set up etc. E.g., some body roll gives you a better feel for the ultimate point where it goes away from you and is more controllable once it starts to move. But, this is not the fastest set up. I'll post my [track] set up but recognize it may not be best for you. On the street it may create problems for you too (e.g., excess tire wear from high levels of negative camber). Finally, in my experience you don't set it once, you'll want to refine it and, in time, want to set it up differently for different tracks (I now have three sets of springs and 3 sets of ARBs and set it differently for slower/tighter tracks than for faster ones -- you get the picture). Anyway, all that said, here's what we did for my car. First, I talked to a race shop with experience with the car and after some discussion of usage and issues (e.g., I am getting a lot of mid corner understeer at medium speed tracks") adopted their recommended alignment, ARB rates, spring rates and suspension settings. Spring rates are comparable to what's being discussed here as are ARB rates. Shocks (I use the Konis) are set to full hard. [A firmer set up (e.g., 800lb F, 550 lb R) will require new shocks and I don't think my butt is finely enough calibrated for it yet.] Second, track alignment (note the caveats above): F: 3 - 3.5 degrees negative camber/no toe/4 degrees castor. From memory when we initially set the shims on the steering knuckles, we put 2shims in either side at the top and 1 at the front, 3 at the rear on the bottom. R: stock toe/2 - 2.5 negative camber. Note, to achieve this alignment we had to fabricate custom chassis forks. Third, we set the chassis as follows: - Set the rear A-arms parallel with tires at 34 psi, ARBs disconnected - Set F - R rake using the coils at 30 mm measuring from the chassis rails (don't use the body or wheel arches unless you want it to "look nice" rather than "go nice") - Set LF = RF, LR = RR ride heights [When it is back on the road I'll fine tune the corner weights aiming for diagonal and cross weights to be +/- 30lbs with 1/2 tank of gas, driver or equivalent weight in the car etc] Connect up the ARBs so they are unstressed when the car is on a level surface. On a bumpy road it is a nightmare to drive. I don't. At a bumpy track I have to raise the front a bit to avoid killing the spoiler. (I use a "shallow" rather than a "deep" spoiler - the deep was broken too many times from hard braking/hitting the ground/fouling on the trailer/off track excursions -- things get broken when you spin). Any of this any use? Philip
Thanks Phillip and Steve, That is just the info I needed to atleast get my car setup in the ball park. Thanks Bill
Just got my car back with the fresh 4-wheel alignment. New lesson to share: After you put on all these suspension mods, you should make no judgements about your car's ride nor make any shock setting adjustments until AFTER the alignment. As far as the alignment is likely to be off after doing this kind of complete disassembly/reassembly, it's going to affect a lot more than tire wear! I'm astounded at how much better yet again my car now handles after the alignment. I'm even MORE happy with the new suspension!
I weighed my 308 last year and was very surprised to see how well balanced it already was. I will post the exact numbers as soon as I dig them up but I do remember that the front was within 6 lbs each side and the rear within 9lbs each side.
I just came back from 100 miles of a pretty Saturday morning country-roads fun drive settling in the new suspension and new front Brembo GT kit. Question for Steven, Tommy and others with a Brembo front kit on your 308: I found that in normal braking and street driving it's fine, but in strong braking it's readily possible to lock the front brakes well before the rears (if the rears lock up at all). As one of the combos suggested by Eric of Girodisc, I'm running Porterfield R4S pads on the rear, stock Brembos with Ferodo DS1100 on the fronts. How do you guys deal with the new stronger front brake bias without putting in a bias adjustment valve?
The ONLY time I have ever had them lock-up is on that down hill chicane at Barbers. On the last little rise as it's curving right the inside wheel will lock for a moment when the suspension unloads. It will do it every time if you are moving fast enough. Otherwise it never locks despite lots of really hard last minute braking. It never happens at TigPrix or Road Atlanta. Never on the street either. By the way, I replaced the pads that came with my kit with Carbotech XP and put the same on the rear. That REALLY wakes up those brakes. I also use ATE Blue fluid. When I ordered them I found out that it is the same pad size for the Vipers. That Brembo kit is a really great set-up. It is SO much more then stock.
