SWISS 308 GTB 1977 - DRY SUMP | FerrariChat
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SWISS 308 GTB 1977 - DRY SUMP

Discussion in '308/328' started by Andreas Engesvik, Aug 22, 2022.

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  1. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #1 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 22, 2022
    Hi all! Are there any members of the Swiss Ferrari club here? I am doing research about my car and would be very greatful for some help. The club admin is not responding to any of my messages. My 308 has lived most of its life in Switzerland - 1977/78 - 2007 (Geneva, Zürich, Lausanne area). It is a Series 1 - GTB 1977 - dry sump - euro. It would be very much appreciated if someone could post a request on my behalf. I have Swiss documents from 1988 - and 1996 when the car is changing owners. I have documented ownership from 1988 - to 2022 - but no info from the years 1978 - 1988. It was first registered in October 1977 and brought into circulation in Zürich in 1978. Original color is Blue Acapulco. Please DM me. Thanks in advance. Andreas, Oslo, Norway
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  2. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,437
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    #2 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, Aug 22, 2022
    chassis number?
     
  3. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    FRANCE
    #3 nerofer, Aug 22, 2022
    Indeed! Without it, it's a shot in the dark...

    Rgds
     
  4. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #4 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
    Thanks for replying. Are are the chassis number - hold on guys - it is;
    Chassis: F106AB*20005*
    First registration 30.10.1977 (Zürich)
    Built 682
    Engine F106A021 *00677*
    Gearbox F106AB 884
    133 – A – 6 (Blue Acapulco)

    I have researched for some time since I bought the car in January, so I am familiar with all the different aspects related to cars from this period, that factory approvals are the only thing etc. I am also aware of the many discussions regarding 20005 - also the ones that go back to 2012. I have 2 Swiss documents covering ownership from 1988 - until today. I have received very much insight from ferraristas in Europe. Some renowned specialist have told me that the car is restamped/fake. The factory first response was that the number were all good. The second response was that "the numbers are incorrect". The car came from Switzerland to Norway 15 years ago. I love the car - are are planning to keep it, but it would be great to find some more info about it? Is it the real 20005? Has it been restamped? Stolen? I will post more images later on.
     
  5. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    12,083
    FRANCE
    #5 nerofer, Aug 23, 2022
    All right Andreas, this is an entirely different matter than researching the past history of a car; I'm sure you already know that there is ANOTHER "20005" which is a "Group IV" conversion, so clearly something is not right for one of these two cars and one of the two is not what she pretends to be. These questions are touchy and difficult.
    One of the two cars obviously has incorrect numbers; but it does not mean it is yours, it might be the other one. Your built number and engine number are at least coherent.
    What is a bit more intriguing is the travel from Switzerland to Norway: nothing against Switzerland or Norway either from myself, I like both countries, but usually this MIGHT be the best way to "launder" a car...
    Have you sent a message to my friend "Triple Black" on this forum?

    Rgds
     
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  6. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    12,083
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    #6 nerofer, Aug 23, 2022
    P.S: and have you enquired with Marcel Massini? Not only does he have a very extensive data base, but he is a swiss citizen, living in Switzerland?

    Rgds
     
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  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,106
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
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    Brian Crall
    #7 Rifledriver, Aug 23, 2022
    I have unconfirmed information 20005 is a Black/Black heavily modified fiberglass rally car.
     
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  8. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,437
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    #8 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, Aug 23, 2022
    Can you post a picture of the chassis number plate on top of your steering column?
     
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  9. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #9 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
    Thanks for your response! I am curious - do you happen to know if this is based on a approval from a specialist og from the factory? I guess the car you are referring to are the the one that was sold in Belgium in 2015?
     
  10. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #10 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    #11 Rifledriver, Aug 23, 2022
    I have no idea what a specialist OG is or how an approval would be obtained or for what.

    I have no idea if, where or when it was ever sold.
     
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  12. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #12 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
    Thanks! Yes indeed difficult and touchy! I have been in touch with Triplejack and received very generous help from him. My intention is to hopefully clarify a few more things - before I bring the car to the Classiche department at the factory. There are 682 stamps/markings at all the right places except from the front lid. There is Vetro in France with the same engine number. And yes - it could be part of a criminal action. The former owner in Norway bought it from a British mechanic that used to work in Switzerland.
     
  13. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #13 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
  14. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #14 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
    Yes - and Mr. Birner - they were very helpful and very coordinated in their response. Birner was convinced that my car had to be a renumbered car - due to the early chassis nr. Massini meant the spacing of the letters on the frame was wrong.
     
  15. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #15 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
    Ok - I see. Specialist OG - was mis-speilling - it should be OR. Now you know that!
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    #16 Rifledriver, Aug 23, 2022
    OK but I have no idea what needs approval.
     
  17. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,437
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    #17 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, Aug 23, 2022
    Wow. this does indeed appear to be 20005.

    Wonder what is up with the "other" 20005

    The mystery deepens
     
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  18. Portofino

    Portofino Formula Junior

    Sep 17, 2011
    863
    Yorkshire UK / Switzerland/ Antibes France
    Full Name:
    Portofino
    #18 Portofino, Aug 23, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2022
    Pics from a 77 car note the differences .
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    Numbers that matter are hand stamped in what looked like empty boxes ^^^ .
    Also below .The 20005 cars numbers look printed , too regular.
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    13595 looks hand stamped each number separately .The 20005 looks uniform as if someone made one punch with that number .Also the “DGM “spacing is tighter on mine compared to Andreas car 20005 .

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    His engine number looks genuine like this .

    Hope this helps ?
     
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  19. isaydingdong

    isaydingdong Formula Junior

    Apr 18, 2014
    290
    ny
    Full Name:
    Sy Sperling
    #19 isaydingdong, Aug 23, 2022
    the *20005* stamping on the id plate looks wrong
     
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  20. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #20 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
  21. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #21 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
    Many thanks for this!
     
  22. Andreas Engesvik

    Andreas Engesvik Karting

    Mar 4, 2020
    148
    Oslo, Norway
    Full Name:
    Andreas Engesvik
    #22 Andreas Engesvik, Aug 23, 2022
    OK!
     
  23. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,437
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    #23 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, Aug 23, 2022
    But the stamping on the chassis back by the engine looks real.
     
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  24. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    12,083
    FRANCE
    #24 nerofer, Aug 24, 2022
    http://www.stanislasmachoir.com/lot/23022/5005507?

    It semms it has indeed been black at one time in her life...the link for the 2015 auction above.
    A friend of ours went to see the car when it was auctionned in the vicinity of Toulouse (south of France): assembly number 227, engine 264, which seems a bit low considering the chassis number; those numbers would be more coherent with a chassis around 194xx - 195xx.

    Rgds
     
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  25. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    12,083
    FRANCE
    #25 nerofer, Aug 24, 2022
    Andreas,

    I'm sorry of being unable to be of any help, as "Triple Black" is the real expert for carbed 308s, with a very extensive database, so he is much better qualified that I am.

    I suppose that you know of the others "20005", as there are also at least two other cars said to be "20005":

    Bobileff has one in their list of "sold cars" said to be "1976 308 GTB #20005 light blue with black interior, euro fiberglass dry sump" (no date of sale)
    (first quarter of the list)
    https://www.bobileff.com/copy-of-parts-2

    And there is a 288GTO replica built by Jim Carpenter in 1991 on a glass car said to be "20005"
    https://www.ronsusser.com/inventory/listing/1976-ferrari-308288-gto-recreation-built-on-a-fiberglass-308-chassis/

    I would bid my time before bringing your car to "Classiche": the way it is, it might as well end with them not issuing the letter, not identifying the car either, and charging you € 3.000 for that...
    Tricky matter for sure. The key is somewhere in her past...I suspect that my former remark about the car crossing borders might be accurate...

    Rgds
     
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