Swiss Euro 308 QV

Let's make it even more fun...I own a 84 308 GTS QV German spec Euro car. Other than the the mesh coverings over the side air intakes, what other mechanical / body differences are there for German spec Euro cars?

 

i thin it likely that there are significant differences between Swiss & other Euro cars as my recollection is they have different headlamp arrangement and often different areas in the parts & maintenance books - tougher emissions & noise in Switzerland too

 

interesting. i assumed a euro car was one type, not country specific.

 

In fact in the eighties there were Swiss specific owner handbooks - digging deep into my memory there was something about the fog lights being special dipped beam headlights I think

 

The Euro QV auxiliary lights are 'flashing' lights, not fog lights. Are only on when you have the headlights down & pull back on the headlight stalk. All the Euro QVs are that way, not just the swiss.

One Swiss difference is that there is a small red 'fog' light just below the rear bumper. It's turned on by the 'fog light' switch to the left of the handbrake.

Switzerland adopted emissions control specs very similar to the US emissions specs much earlier than the rest of Europe. So the emissions system has more in common with the US cars than the other Euro cars.

 

I didn't know this...I'll have to try that one.

 

Oh, yes,
Mine doesn't have the rear window defogger either. Mostly a don't care until we have a nice winter day after a thaw has washed the salt off of the roads. Have seen a couple of other Euro QVs w/o the defogger.

I plan on wiring my flasning lights so that the 'rear fog light' switch activates them. I've replaced the originals with Sylvania Xenarc HID units. So far, no one has noticed, not even a concours judging team !

BTW, i'd like to have a set of those German mesh air intake inserts. Altho, guess I could make some that fit iinside the fibreglass plenums just at the end of the body intakes.

 

They are made of Unobtanium, no dealer has them and they are NLA. Sounds like a job for Unobtanium to make them available

 

Do you need a good close-up pic of them?

 

As I understand also the Swedish market cars are similar to the Swiss spec, except the rear fog light. What does the mentioned gear ratio mean for the driving? Would it for example impact the acceleration up to ceetain speeds? Anybody drove both this and other euro and has some experience on if you feel any difference?

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Does anybody know whether the Swiss QV did have a different engine compression ratio like the US cars?

 

The F documentation strongly indicates IMO that the CH version 308QV has the same compression ratio as the Standard (euro) version 308QV:

1. The 308QV/328 WSM only shows three 308QV engine types: Standard (euro), US '83, and US '84

2. The standard version 308QV SPC does not show any different CH piston, and the US version 308QV SPCs do not show any different CH version piston.

3. Supplemental OMs for CH version didn't appear until 328.

The Prosecution rests

 

Thanks! The reason for the Swiss 308QV having just a little less bhp would then be the more quiet exhaust and/or ignition timing?

 

What is your F reference "for the Swiss 308QV having just a little less bhp"? What is the bhp value given?

Are you sure a CH 308QV doesn't have a complete US version engine? If someone can post the engine family marking on a CH 308QV engine that could help determine that. (I'm seeing some references in the SPCs that a Swiss version 308QV uses the Digiplex MED805a -- which is the US 308QV Digiplex unit. But both options seem a little odd to me: 1) a CH 308QV using a euro engine with US Digiplex ECUs and no cats nor air injection, or 2) a CH 308QV using a complete US version 308QV engine, but no cats and no air injection.)

 

Found the engine number and it is not US. F105A046, no cats. US would be either F105A040 or F105E040. Does anybody have more info on the 046.

 

Only that "046" is the engine family suffix used on all the Swiss version engines. I assume that it also doesn't have an air injection system? If it has euro cylinder heads (with no air injection ports), I guess it could still have US pistons inside. Can you confirm the Digiplex ECUs are the US MED805a (and not the euro MED803a)?

You mentioned having some sort of published bhp number for a Swiss version 308QV. Is it closer to the 240 bhp specification of a euro, or the 235 bhp of a 1984-85 US? I am very surprised that I've never seen that F105A046 engine family in any of the F documentation -- even in the 308QV/328 WSM on page A6, where they "decode" the VIN, there is no mention of a Swiss version 308QV existing (although it doesn't show Swiss version 328 either, and those are mentioned in other F documents).

 

The „official“ numbers in different car documents are all over the place. Have seen 238, 237, 235, 233 and 232. In the „official“ Swiss car document of my 911G from 1982 it said 188 instead of 204. Needed an official birth certificate from Porsche and many letters to get it changed. The last 3.0 with 204 is the most sought after. I guess in the 80s they just took what was available or the same number as another same modell from the same year range. Anyway, my 308 pulls harder than some US imports I have driven but after almost 40 years every car feels different anyways. Interesting investigation though, would love to find the truth collectively.

 

I think we have solved the riddle today and discovered even more interesting facts. Spent the afternoon at the Ferrari Dealer workshop and looked through the parts catalogue. For Europe there is only one parts catalogue including Switzerland and the Swiss specific parts are in there. There is three different QV engines listed. a) base version (Euro), b) US 1983 and c) US 1984. Ferrari had to tackle two different things for different markets. For the US, Australia and Japan it was emissions. For Switzerland it was noise, as the cats only became mandatory in 1986. For the US to meet emission regulations the 308s QV came with cats and lower compression, hence the slightly reduced power to 235PS. For Switzerland there were no cats and therefore no compression reduction and the necessary noise reduction was done through a different mainshaft gearing and ECU for different ignition timing. The reduced power to 235PS was due to a different 5th gear only. Coincidently the same power number for US 1984 and Swiss 1984 but for very different reasons and with very different engine feel. The Swiss engine 046 does indeed have the same cylinders and pistons as the Euro spec. We also found out that the Swiss 308s do have a lighter flywheel to match the different gearing. This explains why all Swiss 308s I have driven felt more "revvy" vs the more powerful Euro 308s. Something I never quite understood as the Euro 308s have more horses on paper. I always thought that it must be related to the condition of the engines driven much harder in Germany due to unlimited speed. For the 328 there are also three different engines listed in the parts catalogue. a) base version (Euro) 270PS, b) US 260PS and c) Swiss 255PS. I also own a Euro 328 and it was imported from Germany to Switzerland in the 80s already when the cats became mandatory. It feels indeed more powerful and "revvy" compared to the Swiss 328s I have driven. However, noise regulation was toughest in Germany at the end of the 80s, hence the more quiet sound of the 270PS German 328s. Hope this is interesting for those who like the little details and differences.

 

Thanks for the additional information, but can't agree that a different gearbox ratio would change an engine's bhp rating (as they are tested for bhp without a gearbox). Could see how the US Digiplex ECUs might be a cause of some bhp reduction for the CH version, but haven't looked in detail at the ignition maps (and they don't specify the intake manifold vacuum when at max bhp so that would have to be guessed/estimated). I'd go more with a quieter Swiss silencer (muffler) causing some of the bhp reduction vs euro version.

 

You might be right and it would be interesting to look at the ignition maps. Could well be the muffler or a combination of the two. The main reason for the gearbox ratio change was for sure the noise measurement regulation. Most important to me is no cats and no compression reduction. I don't care about PS but very much about how the engine revs and feels. For that reason I have changed from a 1989 911G Swiss with cats and 217PS to a 1982 911G German without cats and "only" 204PS. The later feels a lot more aggressive and "revvy" compared to the more powerful 1989. It is quite difficult to do direct driving comparisons with different variants on the same day due to rarity of these beasts. Very interesting investigation anyways.

 

Very interesting! I'm still surprised that there isn't more in the F documentation about Swiss version 308QV -- like some sort of special OM addendum. Not sure that the CH flywheel is any lighter -- the 118910 flywheel shown in the euro 308QV SPC is just the US version flywheel. Could be the only difference is the markings -- since the euro (MED803a) idle mark is at 10 deg BTDC, and the US (MED805a) idle mark is at 3 deg ATDC. Might also explain the difference in the "feel" since the total advance at high RPM is about the same for both (so the US version adds more ignition advance more quickly).

 

The combination of the US parts with a higher compression Euro engine would also create a different feel. I have checked and you are right that the entire exhaust system including the muffler is also a separate part number for CH QVs.