Test pipe / high performance CAT on a F430

Try some O2 extensions on ebay. They should be under $20 for a pair and install them in the bypass pipes easily. This MIGHT eliminate the O2 check engine light as it pulls the secondary O2 sensors a little farther away from the exhaust path and tricks the ECU from seeing the full exhaust stream.

As far as I know, all of the ECU's in the later cars only use the lambeda wideband sensor in the primary O2 location to adjust air/fuel ratio's and the secondary O2 sensor should be a narrow band O2 sensor just to make sure the cats are working.

 

Similar similar situation here Pierre,
I have got the fabspeed headers and cats and although the power has jumped up to 540bhp, the cel is always on.

I might have to put the original cats back on because I can not have the cel on all the time.
The secondary O2 sensors need to work properly because if the cats ever fail they are there to detect it and avoid any further more expensive damage elsewhere!

 

I guarantee you that O2 extensions don't work, I have bought 4 of them and installed them on the cats first, but when the P0420 ECL popped up again, then I fitted 2 more on the headers and no luck!
It's just waist of money and additional weight on the car ( every little gram counts for me).
Oh, and I have my car customs remapped, the AFR is bang on so no excessive emissions....

 

This is exactly what I am going to do as well.
Pat!
I am very disappointed with those Fabspeed cats.....

 

Thanks Pat!

 

This is Joe at Motorsports USA. .
We were the 1st company in the world to design f430 sports racing catalytic converters or F430 cat bypass pipes and high performance race quality headers for these cars.

Fabspeed imports HJS tuning Germany 200 cell trimetalic catalytic converters for all these cars.

These F430 cars reallywake up interms of sportscar sound and significant power by replacing the headers or stockoemferrrari cats. There are 6 catalytic converters on these cars : 1st set of pre cats are jammed into the f430 and 360 headers and then downstream there are 4 additional cats 2 on each bank. Changing any or all of theses parts makes a major change in power and sportscar sound on all cars with n exceptions. The sound and f1 sound is not dependent on the reR muffler no matter what brand.

These cars are sensitive and with cat bypass pipes you will usually get a cel light. Sometimes with super premium HJS German catalytic converters with ObD Euro level 4 proprietary wash coats you may get a cel light. To turn it off requires 3 solutions often a Fabspeed 02 simulator works great over 90+% of the time. Next an ecu tune van usually turn off cel lights. Lastly many Racers, Drivers education and gung ho Ferrari owners simply ignore the stupid cel light as it is an idiot light and the car simply runs and sounds fantastic.

Lastly, Ferrari owners know that with quality headers on their 355, 360, and 430 you can drive happily ever after knowing that factory ferrari headers are not on your car like a time bomb waiting to destroy your engine.

Yes indeed the headers and sports race cats are slightly different for the Ferrari F430 scuderia cars. Fabspeed had a Scuderia in dyno development and all data is posted on our website. I am in Park City Utah and there are 4 scuderia spiders and coupes available at beautiful Steve Harris Imports in salt lake city!

happy New Year

 

You see the problem here Joe, is that when I bought the Fabspeed cats and headers, I was told that "NO CEL" would light up!
Then once the light popped up, you ( your employees) suggested I buy the o2 extenders and they didn't make a difference.
And I am not the only one here who suffered with the same problem!
Then now you are also trying to sell another product of yours in the form of a ecu tune.
My point is that this is not a proper way of doing business because I personally I am not bother about the Taiwan origin of the headers, but by the way you handle your customers problems that arise after they fit your products!!!!
Obviously more research and tests should have been done by yourselves before you put these products on the market this way your quotes that you use to advertise the products are 100% correct.

Harry

 

Wow. I had no idea that fabspeed sold you those products and it still didn't get rid of the CEL. Shouldn't they have something figured out by now for this?

 

Its not so simple, I think the problem may be that due to different geographical variances the software mapping tolerances may be different for US destined Scuderia's than ones that where built for European markets.

Each car market has to pass differing levels of government legislation/laws and the only way to pass is with messing around with cats, software and different emissions hardware. Ferrari ECU mapping is therefore different for different markets. Not just mapping but power output and even kerb weights can be vastly different.

I'm guessing from what I've read the software is more sensitive in the Scuderia (European mapping) to cat sensitivity hence the CEL when it may have worked fine on a US spec Scud. If the efficiency of the cat is detected to have dropped even a little then the CEL is triggered whereas on other markets and earlier cars they where much less sensitive. I'm also guessing that now the only way to circumvent this is with a O2 simulator that's been proven to work with the software programming or better yet remapping to ignore the O2 margin of errors.

If your considering buying products designed and built by US companies (i.e. smaller independent companies) to put on your European cars there is Always an element of extra risk you face vs US destined cars. I am afraid this is true since there is no way these companies can possibly test their products in every market configuration across all model variants.

 

I agree with you Trev,but my point is that buyers, should be made aware of these risks, because not every driver has advanced mechanical understanding.

The other thing, is that the O2 sensor is there for a reason ( to detect if the cat is working properly or not and alert us) so if we eliminate it's function, then in the event of the cats failing completely then there is no way to find out until it's too late and more damage is caused....

 

.... to the environment

The only damage a failed cat will do is kill the planet that little bit more, well at least until the next MOT/Smog/Control Technique test [tick appropriate box]. I am not talking about the nasty header/manifold cat variety which can cause engine damage but the exhaust one before the back box.

Without checking I'm guessing the pre-cat O2 sensors should oscillate between about 0.2 to 0.8 volts regularly (about every 1 second at idle).

The post-cat oxygen sensors are doing the same job as the pre-cat oxygen sensors in sniffing the gasses. The post cat oxygen sensors are only there to monitor the performance of the catalytic converters so you know when the old cats are past their sell by date. The pre-cat sensor signals are oscillating between 0.2-0.8 volts and once the exhaust gasses pass through the cat, most (all, in theory) excess fuel (hydrocarbons) will be combusted thus reducing hydrocarbon emissions. The cat uses oxygen in the exhaust to combust the fuel. So what you end up with in the exhaust after passing through the cat is a gas mixture that is reduced in hydrocarbons and reduced in oxygen relative to the mixture entering the cat.

The post-cat exhaust gas mixture should be CONSTANTLY low in oxygen if the cat is doing its job of burning excess fuel. Therefore, the post-cat O2 sensor signal should be a constant lower voltage reading (not oscillating). So, if the post-cat O2 sensor is seen to oscillate just like the pre-cat O2 sensor, that means that the post-cat sensor is seeing the same gas mixture as the pre-cat sensor meaning that the catalytic converter is NOT doing its job of burning excess fuel. Since the computer software monitors the post-cat sensor and compares it to the pre-cat sensor. If the signals are similar, it assumes the cat is bad. I think the comparison is more strict on the Scuderia ecu's.

I do agree that it would be great if the makers specified the exact model and ecu versions and market car versions they have 'tested and proven' their products on but its very unlikely to happen any time soon because dare I say it I'm not even sure they even KNOW!

This has always been the problem of buying an extensively aftermarket modified car too. What exactly was changed and where do you buy the replacement parts if something goes wrong!?

Unfortunately the Scud is still too new to yet know what really works and what does not yet. Not enough hardcore enthusiasts such as myself have had time to pay with all the ecu's yet

 

Ok had more time to compare the 360/CS vs 430/Scud...

First some background...

A "Wide band o2 sensor" can measure the air/fuel ratio directly and accurately.
An older "Narrow band o2 sensor" is more crude and can only switch back and forth from rich to lean.

The wide-band oxygen sensors produce a signal that is directly proportional to the air/fuel ratio produced by the fuel injection. Wide band oxygen sensors respond to changes in the air/fuel mixture in less than 100 milliseconds.

The pre-cat o2 sensor is used in closed loop operation to adjust the air/fuel mixtures.
The post-cat o2 sensors are only for 2 things
1. To check the efficiency of the pre-cat o2 sensor (i.e is it working efficiently..)
2. To verify the catalyzer efficiency (i.e. is the cat becoming inefficient?).

On 360/CS ;
Pre -cat o2 sensor : Wide band.
Post-cat o2 sensor : Narrow band. <---- cheaper older sensor type

On F430/Scud ;
Pre -cat o2 sensor : Wide band.
Post-cat o2 sensor : Wide band.

This is the reason why the F430 is harder to mod. Its relatively easy to trick the ECU on the CS since its a older type sensor.

What "normal" looks like...

On F430/Scud ;
Pre-cat
After the 20 seconds heating cycle, every 100ms a voltage is output between 100mV (0.1 volts) and 900mV (0.9 volts) from the wideband o2 sensors.

The Oxygen Sensor generates a very small voltage, ranging from as little as 100mV (0.1 volts), up to a maximum of 900mV (0.9 volts) dependent upon exhaust gas oxygen level. The sensor references atmospheric oxygen, typically approximately 21%, to the varying amount of excess oxygen in the exhaust. The larger the differential in oxygen between the atmosphere and exhaust the higher the voltage output of the sensor. A rich mixture typically has 0% oxygen, whilst a lean mixture may have 3-4%. During normal engine operation the sensor voltage will oscillate between 100mV - 900mV as the mixture quickly swings between rich and lean. The system will average the sensor voltage to ~ 450mV which will result in the mixture ratio of 14.7:1.

Post-cat
It should be relatively easy to measure the PMV voltage (milli volts) from a standard cat with standard cats. If you read the voltage from the post cat o2 sensor [just using a voltmeter] you could see what the ECU is expecting then mimick that output. What's different about it than the pre-cat output? It should be reading lower but by how much?

Ideally you should be able to take the signal produced by the pre-cat o2 sensor and 'adjust its voltage' so the signal output 'simulates' what the computer expects to see. An o2 simulator could do this or simply a voltage potentiometer adjusted downwards from the input of the 1st o2 sensors output.

Summary
What all this CEL business tells me is that the new cats must not be as efficient as the factory cats, hence the CEL and that equally the 430/Scud programming is very sensitive to bad cat efficiency. Something to consider for the future as these cats start to get old they will cause more CEL's that on the 360.

Harry, need any more help, pm me!

 

Ok, here a diagram from Bosch themselves. In a nutshell the post-o2 sensor should be outputting a voltage of around 500mV's [and no less if the cat is working good! ]. Sounds like we just need some very simple output voltage generator which keeps the voltage at around 500mV's and the aftermarket ecu will be happy. Should be easy to verify with a volt meter on the F430's / Scud's post cat.

Here's what Bosch say about it...
"In recent years we have seen a rapid increase of vehicles on our roads using pre and post catalytic converter oxygen sensors. These are referred to in this catalogue as Control (pre catalyst) and Diagnosis (post catalyst) oxygen sensors. The requirement for controlling the combustion process is now only one of the functions of the engine management system. Modern systems also control and monitor the operation of the vehicles’ catalytic converter. With the fitment of sensors after the catalyst, the efficiency of the catalytic converter can now be evaluated and various engine control strategies can be employed to reduce harmful exhaust emissions throughout various driving and engine operating conditions.

Diagnosis Sensor Operating Characteristics.
Whilst the diagnosis sensor is often of the same design family as the conventional Control Sensor, sensor activity is quite different to what would be expected of a correctly operating pre-catalyst sensor. As shown below, the output signal from the diagnosis sensor is generally a flat output signal of approximately 500mV, this is in contrast to the control sensor normal activity as shown.
Further detailed information about oxygen sensors, including diagnosis sensor operation and catalytic converter technology, can be obtained from the Bosch “Lambda Diagnosis” Training Course. Further information about the range of Bosch Workshop Training Programs including course topics, schedule dates and locations can be requested from Bosch."
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Wow!
Trev, your technical knowledge is beyond belief!!!

I do understand fully what you have said and I feel much better about the cats now!
Saying this jokingly, if you were to develop a sort of plug in solution for this problem, you will definitely be selling lots of them!



Happy New Year buddy!!!!

 

The Fabspeed "02 sensors/ 90 degree elbow" Is a complete waste! Your CEL will always go on. Forget the fact that it wont work worth a damn, mine broke clean off their welds within a month of driving them. (no track use etc)

Fabspeed did swap out my cat-byass pipes for non-elbow parts quickly. But somehow forgot to refund me the $300 bucks the attentional parts cost.... not to mention the extra labour I had to pay to have them reinstalled. I have advised them of this issue in writing and by phone. I have also put them in touch with my mechanic, to no avail.
Buyer beware!


See the link below as to the part I am referring to.http://www.fabspeed.com/images/spacer_90degree.jpg

 

Anyone have a good way to simulate .5 volt on the secondary O2 sensor?
There has to be a easy way, I just don't know it.

 

It would still be better to get an aftermarket tune, for any upgrades, other than just a catback exhaust upgrade. The Ferrari ECU's have some learning capabilities I believe, but once you start removing cats, and increasing cat flow, the tune will make sure everything runs smoother.

One example would be to look at the gains of just a Capristo Package, and compare that to the gains Fabspeed is getting with their full exhaust package. Fabspeed's includes a tune to take advantage of the new flow characteristics, Capristo's does not. Now if Capristo worked with a tuner, they should show the same gains. Just a suggestions C!

 

I have a tuner but I'm not sure the German engineers of the software have actually told him where the code is in the raw BIN file to turn it off. They have all the other maps (Fuel, ignition, throttle maps, etc..) done but I haven't been able to confirm the O2 sensor setting has been mapped.

I found this and if it just need to be locked to hoover around 500mv, this may be the simple solution for $100.

http://www.o2simulator.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_9

 

The Fabspeed 90 degree Oxygen sensor extenders eliminate the CEL light on 2ndary oxygen sensors on many cars without fail.

The very new Ferrari DI engines and certian 430s cars with Fabspeed headers (therefore eliminating the 1st pre cat) and then installing 200 cell HJS sports race cats ............one can still occasionally get a CEL light. I would estimate a 20 to 40% probability. As these cars change and age the likelihhod goes down in probability as long as regular maintanece is followed.

NO aftermarket catalytic converter can scrub or clean-up a Porsche, Lamborghini or Ferrari OEM catalytic converter system as OEM cars have 700 to 800 CPSI catalytic converters =cells per square inch. AS you all know USA North American Ferrari 360 and 430 cars have 6 catalytic converters as installed from the factory. 1st set are located in the OEM headers and then there are 4 more restrictive catalytic converters- double set of catalytic converters in 360 and 430 cars removable left and right catalytic converter sections.

This is why there is big big power and amazing sports car sound be replacing any of these parts. Fabspeed has HJS 200 cell tri-metallic sports racing catalytic converters with OBD2 Euro 4 level washcoats for all these cars and we have to go to even more expensive HJS catalytic converters for the Ferrari 458 and California and Porsche Panamera Twin Turbo and 2011 997 Twin Turbo in order to keep the CEL light OFF and still make solid power, sports car sound and long term durability.

HJS Germany our catalytic converter supplier partner and HJS and Fabspeed Motorsport USA are always Dyno developing and testing new advanced catalytic converters for all these cars and new DI engines that are coming out. Engines and emissions are continuously evolving and catalytic converters will logically do the same. Fabspeed Motorsports offers sports racing catalytic converters for the $30 Scuderia and Ferrari 458 and California and we also have catlaytic converter bypass pipes aka straight pipes for all these cars too.

 

so fabspeed products are manufactured in taiwan?

 

Holy old thread!

To address your statement. Fabspeed Motorsport has, and always will - design and build our product line in house - Fort Wahsington, PA. USA.

As any other top level manufacture in any market, we source certain materials and assemblies from the best manufactures from across the globe in order to bring the greatest products possible to our customers.

Please feel free to stop in and tour our facility to see the maufacturing process for yourself, or check out one of our many manufacturing videos on our YouTube channel.

 

Is this really starting again?