News

test pipes and oxygen simulator for 01'360

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by gripet, Nov 14, 2003.

  1. gripet

    gripet Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    38
    south of Chicago
    Gents: Have completed the project of removing the cats and installing the Tubi test pipes from Heiko (sponsor this site) Very reliable source BTW. The car already had the Tubi cannister. Hard part was getting rid of the engine check light. Solution www.casperselectronics.com part # 104037. It wires into the aft sensor wire just before the first pull apart plug. Directions are very straight forward. When LED light blinks you are wired correctly. ECU will need to read values about five times before the light goes out so drive the car 200 miles or so to get the result. Sensor will retain the "Lambda" within the appropriate range and therefore not alter the fuel air ratio as it would with a missing or aging cat.
    I need help with the same problem for an '01 996TT if anyone knows the solution please let me know. thanks
     
  2. t88power

    t88power Formula 3

    Feb 19, 2001
    2,396
    Puerto Rico
    Full Name:
    Ernesto
    Nice to hear the solution worked! Congrats!

    Ernesto
     
  3. pino

    pino Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    208
    South Central PA
    Would not the same solution for the 360 work on the 996?
    Obviously the plug or wires may be slightly different, but shouldn't the theory be the same?
     
  4. manu

    manu Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2002
    981
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Manu
    Gripet - thanks for this - VERY helpful.
     
  5. gripet

    gripet Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    38
    south of Chicago
    Gents: Got a Equus 3100 engine analyzer from www.partsamerica.com. Read the manual, am learning rapidly. Still haven't figured out how to connect it to the 360 but since it has to be OBD 2 compliant there has to be a computer jack (usually under the dash). Have noticed how complicated this system is and how interrelated all these programs have become. Bad news is that the engine check light (mil) is back. According to the manual it takes three warm drives to satisfy the computer that the aft cat sensor is working okay. On the other hand, it takes two warm drives for the computer to decide that the cat is ailing or has failed. So you can have a drive of several hundred miles and the code could have been stored pending later notification.
    Then I noticed a post from the UK wherein the guy had left the cats intact and simply straight piped the cannisters on a 575. To be more specific, he had left the midline first cannister alone and then straight piped the two aft cannisters using Tubi pipes (probably from Heiko). He liked the sound and wasn't bothered with any check engine lights. LSS, on the 360 maybe we should have left the cats alone and just straight piped the single can. When we went from stock 360 to 360 Tubi it was great, but when we straight piped the cats it went to magnificient.
    Anyway still searching for that illusive racing sound with no engine issues. Will keep you posted. Am curious to know what the 996TT would sound like with the cats removed from the RUF can.
    More later.
     
  6. manu

    manu Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2002
    981
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Manu
    Putting post-cat straight pipes on the 360 is SHOCKINGLY loud - I would NOT recommend it.
    The 360 with Tubi + test pipes is IMO the feasible limit to volume for a road going car. To most of my own customers even this setup is just too much so we only do it to peoples cars that want something extreme.... To completely remove the muffler would cause quite a few issues namely extreme resonance at continous low throttle openings and most importantly you would lose the "note" (that Tubi high-pitched F1 scream). The crappy bark that the stock 360 has would return except with a massive amount of bass and three times the volume.

    You are quite right though about the Tubi/test pipes setup- the resultant sound is simply unbelievable... People go on about their cars sounding like F1 but this really does...
    The technical results from de-catting the 360 vary quite a lot. Some people will not trigger the check engine light for thousands of miles - others will trigger it instantly. Either way this does not effect the way the car runs....The values being fed back to the ECU from the post cat lambda sensors necessitate the use of 02 simulators but most of the people who opt for this setup don't give a damn if they lose 8hp at the bottom and bit of torque low down because of the AMAZING noise.

    The 550 is different - by replacing the rear mufflers on the 550 with Tubi only-tube examples there are no issues at all. (it was my company that did Zaks car) The cats on the 550 are huge and then you have the central muffler which keeps everything mellow.

    Gripet - try plugging the car into an SD2 and put the light out and then run around on it again and see if the light comes on.
     
  7. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    well as my previous posts indicated removing the cats is NOT a good idea.

    There are only 2 companies worlwode capable of altering the Bosch system and that does not include any of the standard chip boys!

    Although many owners like the sound and dont care about engine check lights I hope they only do small miles in their cars!!! as dyno and rolling road testing confirms that the substitute value places by the motronic system is not within an acceptable tolerance.

    In the 2 cars we were invloived with they both ran weak at high RPM- not an ideal situation if you use your car and intend to keep it!.

    Its not simply a case of lossing a few HP its a question of providing the correct solution and no one has come up with it yet!
     
  8. ajay_m

    ajay_m Rookie

    Nov 3, 2003
    2
    Particularly for the F355 and 348 it is a means of reducing temperatures to prevent manifold failure.
    After de-catting literally hundreds of the 355s and 348s, we are yet to see ANY TYPE OF TECHNICAL FAILURE resulting from de-catting OVER THE LONG OR SHORT TERM.
    However we have seen countless people who thought de-catting was a bad idea fork out thousands of $$$$ in re-welding cracked manifolds, new manifolds, new heat shields, blah blah blah.

    The choice is yours.. technical theory about ideal lambda values (which may not occur even with cat's installed) is all very well - ACTUAL EXPERIENCE tells a rather different story I'm afraid.
     
  9. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    Actual expereince is based on real figures!

    The manifold design of the 355 and 348 is a bad one, so resolve that by getting them rebiult or using tubi ones. Its not a technical theory about lambda values, its about the correct mapping and fuelling requirements for the engine

    If individuals wish to try their own DIY idea to get round the manifold problem thats up to them.

    But ones needs the FACTS from a dyno and rolling road which I and others on this board have to PROVE the facts.

    It depends if individuals want a hit and miss approach to solving a problem when in fact they dont know what the effects are going to be and will be unaware of the potential damage they do.

    Im sure many individuals are happy and they have had no technical problems and thats good for them but the issues remain.
    Technical theory about lambda values which may not accur even with the cats installed???????

    the engine check light does not come on with cats installed if they work properly and the engine does not run weak at high RPM!!
     
  10. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Full Name:
    Rob Schermerhorn
    "Without the data, it's only an opinion" - Enzo Ferrari, c. 1950
     
  11. manu

    manu Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2002
    981
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Manu
    The "issues" only remain if they manifest themselves in the form of FAILURE.

    Whilst whatever you are saying is UNDOUBTEDLY true from a theoretical point of view, empirical evidence on the number of cars with engine problems resulting from de-catting will NOT I'm afraid back up your viewpoint.

    There is just too much inconsistency in the OBDII system... (think worn cats which do not trigger a check engine light....)

    The numbers speaks for themeselves.
     
  12. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    Well Lets agree to disagree!! facts are, the system was designed to run OBD2 the only way of ensuring that the engine runs to the parameters that it was deisgned to do is either by using cats or by using OBD2 replicators that do the job properly. To the best of my knowledge no one is doing a replicator that works!

    The problem is with ferrrai there are not enough cars to form proper opinions ( as with porsche- where if you remove the cats you loose a lot of BHP and the engine goes to limp home mode)
    The mileages are mainly small per year and many owners do not thrash the cars

    The only advantages of doing it are lower manifold tempertaures and many dissadvantages its up to the individual to make an informed choice but there have been postings before on the subject and they seem to indicate its not a good idea on cars after 96 as the catalyst is not the blockage that one would think.

    I would be hapy to provide the name of the company which has dyno facilities, works for GM motorsport and has a number of Ferrari clients on their books to support the view!
     
  13. Just finished my Tubi/Test Pipe install on my 1998 355. The off throttle response appears to be slightly affected (seems lean) as the air passes the Mass Airflow Sensors, the FI system seems to not be tuned for the sudden crack of the throttle and rush of air.

    200 miles and no MIL.

    Top end of the RPM Range: STILL SCREAMS!

    That makes sense as the system is in Closed Loop it still has the front O2 Sensor sending a signal aft of the headers but still located in the front of the cat.
     

Share This Page