Testarossa - Ignition, Fuel Injection Problems - Sympathetic EFI Upgrade Pro | FerrariChat

Testarossa - Ignition, Fuel Injection Problems - Sympathetic EFI Upgrade Pro

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016.

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  1. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    #1 SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    My partner and I have been working on Testarossa’s for some years now. Many of them come to us because they have running problems. Consequently we have had to trouble shoot a whole range of issues some of which are very complex, frustrating and time consuming to diagnose and put right. All the more so if the vehicle has been to several shops resulting in the root cause of the problem being masked by a series of well intentioned adjustments, generally to the Bosch K or KE Jetronic fuel injection system. The help of people like Steve Magnusson has been invaluable during these diagnostic exercises - we are fortunate indeed to have access to such helpful and knowledgeable individuals.

    Many frustrated Testarossa owners will be familiar with problems such as: Running on One Bank; difficult Cold Start; Surging / Hesitation / Misfire; Hanging Throttle; Stalling; Irregular Idle; difficult Hot Start, Low Power Output etc etc. To make matters worse it is getting increasingly difficult to service and or source OEM parts for the fuel injection and ignition systems.

    A well sorted Testarossa is an absolute joy to own. They are fabulous to drive when they run the way Enzo intended. They are very rapid, capable and surprisingly agile covering long distances at high speed in relative comfort. We love Testarossas and drive them regularly on long club rallies.
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  2. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    #2 SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Efforts to help a couple of owners in relatively remote locations prompted us to look at a way we could get a Testarossa to run well using an easy to fit upgrade kit. Our thinking was to see if we could produce a kit that essentially eliminated or bypassed most of the troublesome components on the vehicle but did not modify the vehicle in any way that would negatively impact the value. For those of you who are still interested this is what we came up with:

    Photo 1 is where we started. We chose a 1988 Testarossa (LHD USA Specification) with KE Jetronic to use as a test mule. The drive train was unmodified apart from a Tubi exhaust fitted with cats.


    Photo 2 is where we ended up – at least so far. The car is now fitted with a fully functioning prototype fuel & ignition system upgrade. The kit is designed to look unobtrusive like it is something that came from the factory. Those of you who know these cars will notice the EFI Fuel rails that use the ports for the original bosch mechanical injectors. You will also notice the RH Distributor cap has a spacer which houses the cam angle sensor needed to control the new EFI & Ignition system. The new ECU is located in exactly the same place as the original one (under the LHR Fender) and you would have to look carefully to see that it has been changed.


    Photo 3 is a better view of the kit during fitting. It was considerably more difficult to achieve but we felt that it was important that absolutely no modifications were done to the car. Accordingly we managed to make the kit 100% reversible. We left components like the original fuel heads (blanked off) and the cold start injectors in place even though they are not used by the new system, to help keep an OEM look.
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  3. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    #3 SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here are some of the main components that were fitted to the prototype. It basically consisted of a set of custom fuel rails, carefully selected electronic fuel injectors, collets that allow the injectors to fit in the original port without modification, fuel pressure regulators, cam angle sensor unit, throttle position sensor & adaptor plate, electronic idle speed control unit along with various brackets that allow fitting of the kit components without modification to the vehicle.

    We replaced the OEM ECU with an Autronic SM3 unit (although any quality programmable ECU could be employed). The ECU is programed to manage all aspects of the new fuel & ignition system. The whole system is tied together with a very high quality custom wiring harness, which also links the new system to the OEM wiring harness.
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  4. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    #4 SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Photo 1 Close up of the EFI Injectors & Rail. The system is designed to use the original fuel pumps, the fuel pressure accumulators & fuel filters. The original fuel lines attach to a fittings on the new fuel rails. Correct fuel pressure is maintained by a fuel pressure regulator, fitted to the forward end of the rail. Excess fuel is returned to the fuel tanks via the original return lines.

    Photo 2 A TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) was required which was fitted via an adaptor plate in the same position as the original Throttle Switch. Clearance was a challenge as was finding a switch that would work without modification to the vehicle.

    Photo 3 The sophisticated CAM angle sensor is needed to give a accurate readings for TDC, engine rpm, firing order etc, in order to ensure that the new fuel & ignition mapping is highly accurate.

    Photo 4 We didn’t want to use the original Auxiliary Air Valve arrangements as they can be the source of several running & starting problems. We came up with a fully programmable electronic idle speed control unit plumbed into the original ports in the intake & plenum chambers. Neat device that allows the system to eliminate several conditions that irritate Testa owners such as cold start, pulsing rpm during warm up cycle, idle compensation with AC & Thermo Fan switching.

    Photo 5 Fully programmable ECU fitted in the same location as the OEM unit. The brushed aluminum base plate will be replaced with a black unit like the original.
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  5. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    #5 SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,934
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    same I did with my koenig competition, but had more work because of the boost up to 1,3 bar ( about 19 psi ) the injectors had to be fixed. at a normal aspirated engine it is ok like you did it

    you counted all the hours you needed :)

    what bosch injectors ( part number ) you used? can not see on the yellow packages.
     
  7. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    #7 SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We drive these lovely old cars enthusiastically but with a high degree of mechanical sympathy. In general we don’t like dynos for precious road cars as they load the car in a way that we would rarely if ever do when driving. However a dyno is an invaluable tool for tuning this type of system. Our objective was always to improve drivability & usability under a broad range of conditions. However, our tuning also needed to establish peak torque / horsepower which included a couple of short trips to the redline to make sure all the parameters were as they should be. As an aside, the new system allows a rev limit to be set or indeed a “valet mode” switch if the owner wanted.

    At the end of day you have got to love a pair of Testarossas at full noise (Happy to upload video if someone can tell me how to get the file size small enough).

    An extended dyno session is pretty hard on any vehicle and the fact that these cars performed flawlessly on the Dyno (didn’t miss a beat, no elevated temperatures etc) is a testament to what an amazingly capable performance car Ferrari delivered in the Testarossa.
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  8. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    #8 SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The results so far? To date we are have driven the “mule” Testa over a couple of thousand kilometres and tried to include a range of conditions (mountains to coast, city stop / start, highway cruise, high speed & twisty country back roads). To say that we are delighted would be an understatement.

    It is hard to convey fully in writing what the car feels like but our observations include:
    Increased Power Output - we have picked up some more torque / horsepower, which was not a primary objective but never fails to please.
    Throttle Responsiveness - is the most obvious and rewarding improvement. The Bosch Jetronic systems generally feel a bit dopey under foot taking a bit of time to respond to throttle inputs. This is vastly improved with the new system with the car feeling far more nimble / responsive under changes in throttle input.
    Fuel Efficiency - is also improved (although these old car generally don’t get driven enough for this to be of concern to most owners).
    Cold Starting & Cold Running - is transformed. The car can be started reversed out of the garage right way without the tendency to stall, idle erratically and generally trying to be embarrassing.
    General Temperament - The mule starts, runs & drives beautifully under all conditions that we have tested it under so far. As many of you will know, the flat 12 (which behaves like two 6 cylinders, joined at the crankshaft) is very sensitive to balance between the left & right banks. If the balance is not perfect the car will need to be set up with a higher idle, be more sensitive to surging, stalling & running intermittently (cold) on one bank. The upgraded system is not at all sensitive to balance as it sees the engine as a 12 cylinder.

    We love Testarossas. We love them even more with this sympathetic upgrade.

    Imagine a Testarossa ownership experience free from the gremlins that go with; thermo time switches, potentiometric relays, protection relays, auxiliary air valves, cold start injectors, warm up regulators, vacuum limiting devices, corroded 30 year old electrical connectors throwing intermittent faults, air flow sensor plates, mechanical injectors, 30 year old Magneti Marelli Microplex etc etc. Steve Magnusson might get his life back & these lovely old cars might get driven a bit more often.

    We had a lot of help from some great people doing this interesting project. A special thanks needs to go to Steve from EFI Hardware, Troy from TZ Tuning and Tim from Black Stallion Motors who were invaluable. You would be hard pressed to find a more friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, resourceful and innovative bunch of professionals to work with.
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  9. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Hi Joe, Injectors were sourced from EFI Hardware and are Bosch Motorsport 550cc EV14 P/N 851-550. Hope this helps.

    Did not count the hours - spoils the fun and you might start to question your sanity! :)
     
  10. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
  11. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Similar car to the "Mule" White Testarossa used for comparison testing with Upgraded EFI Car. These cars sound pretty awesome on the dyno. White car has very similar Tubi exhaust to the Black car but without Cats. IMHO sounds the best. :)

    https://youtu.be/dGRD4pNySM4
     
  12. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    So...Are you selling the kits or something?
     
  13. MGJBLKTR

    MGJBLKTR Karting

    Apr 10, 2006
    215
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    MGJ
    Any before and after dyno graphs?
     
  14. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2006
    3,088
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Robert Hayden
    I was fortunate enough to recently drive the white 'stock' car and the black 'injected' car. Having three Testarossa's of my own, I'm certainly aware of the idiosyncrasies of these cars, especially when starting up from cold and getting to operating temperatures. They can be dogs of things. Hunting idle, revving up and down, feathering throttle to keep them running etc. Once temperature is reached they are pretty good, but forget about jumping in the car, hitting the car, and once oil pressure is up, backing out of the driveway!

    So here's my take. The black car hadn't been started for 4 - 5 days. Climb in, ensure car is in neutral and hit the key. No need to touch the throttle pedal at all. Instantly the car fires and settles into a smooth idle. I mean instantly, the started barely cranked! The car was 100% smooth, no hunting, popping, farting etc. Just smooth. I let it idle and you could hear small changes in the idle speed as the temperature came up, and within a minute or two it's sitting at about 1050 with AC off. Touch the AC button and idle increased slightly. AC off, back down to 1050.

    Reverse the car out of the shed, first thing you notice is no stumble at all as reverse load comes on. Throttle is very accurate. Driving the car you can feel a fluidity to the car that isn't generally there. It feels more linear in the power delivery, no stumble at all and zero hesitation. Throttle response is really impressive. On and off the throttle mid corner doesn't affect the car like it used to, probably due to the specific fuel measurement to the cylinders. You can really work the throttle much easier than on a stock Testa.

    It doesn't feel a lot more powerful, it just feels 'better'! The car is a nicer, smoother package to drive, but the really impressive part was the start up from cold. Now you can have a Testa that you can simply hit the key, and wander back into the house to grab keys, wallet, wife etc, and know that the car is running 100% perfectly in the garage, warming up the fluids befopre you hit the open roads. No fiddling about, feathering the throttle, waiting for the engine to warm enough to find that 'sweet spot' where it will actually keep running without your assistance.

    And it looks the goods. Pretty much like a factory fit and even a bit tidier than a 512TR. On earlier cars the warm up regs will not be required but you could still leave them there for looks. On later cars, there is not much to pick on a cursory glance. And if you move on to another Testa, a few hours work to transfer to your new car and the old one is 100% stock again. This kit appears to not even need as much as a hole drilled in your precious car and uses 100% factory pickup points for all hardware so completely reversible.

    Great work Shaun and Santino to get this package together. Once kits are available, it's a one stop shop to have it fitted and tuned and never ever have to worry about K Jet or KE Jet parts failing or needing service or tuning ever again. Gold!!
     
  15. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    LOL Robert and SBDaytona, you sure are thick with the salesman lingo. I feel like I'm reading an eBay ad. "Never driven in rain! My loss is your gain!" etc. :)

    So, let's cut to the chase - how much will these kits cost and when will they be available?
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,116
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Funny, I have worked on TR's since the day they came out, I own one as well. Mine displays none of the symptoms or running behavior you describe from a stock TR. Just needs to be tuned better.
     
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  17. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Hi Joe, sorry if it sounds like a heavy sales pitch - I can see how it might. Just being enthusiastic really - we put a lot of work into this and thought other owners might like to know what was done and how it turned out.

    We don't have a commercial business and have no plans to sell these kits on a commercial basis. We have another couple of kits on the way which are already spoken for - they will be fitted to cars that belong to friends. We will certainly do more kits for friends but had not really planned to sell them widely.

    I see it as a bit like Birdman - he made a great fuse box upgrade (initially for himself) subsequently he has been good enough to make them available to other enthusiasts (I have fitted several and they are great). He has a real job, will never get rich selling fuse box upgrades but there are a few of us that are very grateful that he makes them to help us keep some of these old cars running well.

    Out of interest the kits that we are doing for friends are likely to come in under about 10k. So not cheap but the ECU, wiring harness, cam angle sensor kit and injectors are relatively expensive and the components add up. Having said that you can pour a lot of money into trying to get the OEM system to run like it should.

    Hope this helps answer your questions.
     
  18. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
  19. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,117
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    Absolutely great work. I see it as a very good upgrade :D
     
  20. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,239
    Frederick, Maryland
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    Are you using oxygen sensors? Does the system go into closed loop mode after warm-up? Do you have catalytic converters in the exhaust?
     
  21. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Thanks Melvin. Really happy with how it turned out. Might try to do one for a 400i next as they tend to suffer from similar ignition and fuel system problems.
     
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  22. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Thanks Motob. Most of the cars we deal with don't have oxygen sensors. We chose the black car as a test mule because it is fitted sensors and catalytic converters (exhaust and cats are Tubi after market). However we found we got better results (performance & emissions) with out using the O2 sensors and closed loop. Having said that it would be easy to add some O2 plugs to the harness for anyone who wants to use them.
    Be interesting to understand how your emissions testing works in the USA on older cars in case hooking up the O2 sensors is important.
     
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  23. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    5,267
    Madison Ohio
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    David A.
    I was under the impression that modern closed loop FI relied on wide band ox sensors to monitor the system?
     
  24. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
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    David A.
    +1
     
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  25. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,387
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Anything that dumps the old cis system will be an instant improvement, no matter what kind of car it's installed in.
     

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