The $20,000 308.... | Page 3 | FerrariChat

The $20,000 308....

Discussion in '308/328' started by CliffBeer, Dec 25, 2009.

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  1. tommott77

    tommott77 Formula Junior

    Feb 1, 2009
    652
    NC
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Agree wholeheartedly with this post. In my experience in dealing with cars (and this really goes for about every marque, I am just going to use 308s as an example) a lot of time the only difference between a $35k car and a $20k car is just some lipstick and mascara. People often assume that a $35k car has been gone through bumper to bumper by the dealer. The truth of the matter is that a lot don't. The last thing that some dealers want to do is poke around probing for problems, especially on a Ferrari. They are trying to turn a profit here.

    These are old cars. I am sure if you spent enough time with a 'perfect' car you would be able to come up with quite an expensive list of items that could be fixed/replaced. Now lets say that you did go through all these items on the 'perfect' car, by the time you are done it is very likely you could back through and come up with another list. Even with the reputable dealers that do everything on the 'up and up', it is still a 30 year old car and something that could have been inspected could go bad the very next day.

    For all these reasons I would never buy the $35k car. The factor of the unknown is at play with any classic car despite the amount you pay for the car. Since I am handy with a wrench I would rather go for the $20k car, and go through it myself...........and I did btw. I too have been involved with cars my entire adult life on both a personal and professional level from time to time.
     
  2. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,092
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    Newman
    What is a great 308? What are we ignoring or turning a blind eye to when we say a $20K 308 is nice or great? Must be a mile long list because Ive never personally seen a great 308 for that price in the 9 years Ive had the ferrari bug. If we can agree that a fully restored 308 would fall into the great catagory, which would be around $100K in labour alone figuring 1000hours, then what is a $20K 308 considered? No where near great, much closer to junk than great or even good.
     
  3. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
    2,198
    Seattle, Washington
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    Cliff
    #53 CliffBeer, Dec 31, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2009
    Paul, we're OBVIOUSLY not talking about pristine concours restored cars like the car you rebuilt. Obviously, your car is highly unique and reasonably commands an extraordinary premium over run-of-the-mill 308s. A large, large premium, fully justified. That's not the point. The point is we're talking about the great unwashed here - the masses of 308s which have not been restored like your beautiful car, the cars that have lots of little (and some big) problems. In other words, your average 308. These lesser 308s end up both on ebay, in non-exotic dealers, and also in the specialty shops equally, and my point (and Tom's above) is that these less-than-perfect cars are sold as $20K cars on ebay but also as $35K cars at specialty dealers.

    I guess my $20K 308 is "much closer to junk" in your words and according to your logic - so be it. I'll take a more diplomatic tactic than you, and restrain myself from saying something negative about your car.
     
  4. Helmut

    Helmut Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2004
    640
    There are some people who can accept what they have with a smile on their face and enjoy the ride and then there are people who can not rest unless its perfect. It may be a bit of a curse but if I buy a 30 year old car on the cheap side then I would barelybe able to enjoy the driving experience unless I knew what is going on with that car. The feeling of not knowing when it could possibly crap out on me or the feeling of wondering how good this car could actually be would ruin the fun of driving one of those.
    Italian cars have always had a "temperamental" side or we could say they have always been poorly put together, if I imagine driving a 30 year old one of these without knowing everything about it, wouldn't work for me. How many people have had one of those cars and experienced one let down after another and eventually gotten rid of it and never looked back.... I guess we wouldn't hear from them on here :)

    Helmut
     
  5. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Newman
    Cliff, like Ric Ive heard over and over again about how one can get a great 308 for 20 or 30K and its just not possible unless your standards are low. A 30 year old untouched low kms car isnt great nor is one that has been used and repaired on the cheap. Because the bulk of 308's are in a less than stellar state, I guess its all relative but why exclude the cars you call exceptional? Those exceptional cars (not just mine and thanks for the kind words) are only called that and held in high regard because of the sorry state of the majority running around. Excluding the great cars is like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the facts. Anyone that has been through one of these cars such as Helmut, Alan, Rocco and myself (and others) or has an exceptional example like Ric knows the difference and understands the monumental undertaking involved in turning a "great" 308 into an exceptional one and you just cant look at them the same way again. You find nothing but faults without even trying when you see other examples, it happens if you restore cars so your standards change whether you want them to or not. I wish that wasnt the case because im having that problem with my boxer now, it needs to be nicer. I wasnt attacking your car specifically Cliff just the whole mentality that supports the idea that a 20K 308 is a good car.
     
  6. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    I think there is a difference in what the definition of perfect is. All I want out of my 308 is for everything to work and for it to be reliable and fun to drive. I'm not too worried about stone chips or the occasional scratch, after all, the car was designed to be driven. Make it too nice during a restoration and you become scared to use it. After seeing way too many over restored cars in my time, I'm definitely in the "maintain and use" and not the "redo everything" camp.
     
  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    Assuming your car is clean, fully functional, up-to-date serviced, no stories and ready to pass any PPI with flying colours would you then sell it gladly for 20-30K? Probably not and its not restored.
     
  8. mtmilam

    mtmilam Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2009
    440
    Lafayette, LA
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    Mark Milam
    Yeah, But What if He DID sell it for 20K....wouldn't it be a good deal???? I think that's what is being said...there are 308's and in my case a 328 that is out there with no issues, fully functional, up to date service, etc. Not Concourse cars, but perfectly good daily drivers that most people can't tell from a New Car ;)

    Thats the kind of cars some people are looking for and they are out there. Some owners just want to sell their car. They don't care about making money on it, they know its not a "real" investment anyway, if you consider all the maintence time and money spend over the years, so they take a little lick and sell it for a low price, just to move it. You could hold out and try to get 30K....like dealers do, but you sit on it for months or years.
     
  9. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
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    Art
    I bought my Mondial t for 20k. However, I knew that it needed a belt service, some minor body work, and the interior re-done. Some 14.5k later, I was pretty much done, and the car is a very good driver.

    Art
     
  10. Helmut

    Helmut Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2004
    640
    I would definitely take one of those but I am not patient enough to wait for such a deal to come about and all the cheaper ones I have been looking at on ebay during the past years, usually looked like they had too many old components on them to make them truly reliable cars. I may not be that lucky.

    Helmut
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    Yes it would be but it would also be foolish on his part and highly unlikely.
     
  12. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 10, 2003
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    The problem is everyone paints all these cars with the same brush...a 76 308, and 82gtsi, and 85QV...and they are not all the same...... 20K gets you 20 grand car...thats the point...and pictures on ebay from 5 feet away they all look good with a wax job...but people fail to look at 12 yr old tires that are hard as hockey pucks, original suspension, melted boxes...how many threads show up week after week about repairing melted boxes ? Or my favorite..." Took it out my new to me ferrari but it overheats" ;)

    Can you find a deal...sure...in everything you can find a deal...is it the standard NO...its the exception. Ebay cars, ferrari adds, the dealers....its always buyer beware.....but it doest matter what i say...another one of these threads will pop next week on the value and everyone high fiving each other on how they got a deal...

    YET....the humor in all this....where are the owners that bought these flooded cars ? how come they dont comment ? how about the guys that bought a pieced 308 that has been in a major accident ? Surely not all these 20-25K 308s are 35,000 mile cars that are being sold by a friend because the shooter owner is on the other side of world or too busy....yeah SURE :D
     
  13. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    It would pass any mechanical PPI today. It has the normal cosmetic issues, but nothing that can not be redone (if that is what someone wanted to do). It isn't for sale, but if someone showed up with $25k in cash, well, everything has its price.
     
  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Newman
    Whats a normal cosmetic issue? Sure it can be painted......for $20K by the time you replace all the rubbers and seals you took off, anodize the trim you took off to do it right, replace the emblems and lights so they look as good as the paint, unless of course all the emblems and lights are perfect. Lets see some detailed underside shots and suspension shots of your 308 as an example of a $25K car, im curious to see what I can get after selling mine. An overall set of shots would be nice too.
     
  15. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2006
    2,831
    Lakewood, Colorado
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    Bradley

    Yes and yes.

    You were lucky. Yes, I had a good (nearly identical) experience buying a 1982 308 GTBi on eBay for $20,000. You were a bit luckier than I was, however, because my 308 had about 80,000 miles on it when I purchased it. (I do think that low mileage being equal to greater desirability is largely a myth for a number of reasons, though. I now have ~110,000 miles on it and have had no problems.)

    Congratulations, and enjoy your 308!

    BTW - for these allegedly "slow" 2v series, I've got two words for you: Hyper-Flow
     
  16. Bella Macchina

    Feb 25, 2006
    36
    Naples, Fl / Canada
    Full Name:
    Al
    Let's face it....You get what you pay for. It's easy to spend $$$$ on these cars. Far as I'm concerned they all have issues unless you let'em sit and just look at them.
     
  17. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    pit bull
    I have a high mileage (140k) 308 that has new paint and interior but needs a complete suspension rebuild and service. I was hoping that car might be worth $20k after seeing some of the $15k examples lately ... but I doubt even $15k after seeing what some of you guys have got for $20k. How do I get hold of the guy that bought the fire car for $15k LOL.

    With new suspension and a fresh service would anyone even pay $20k for a high mileage car? With a refreshed engine (rings, bearings, heads) is she worth $25k? I've been contemplating downloading something so this is a good thread for what a no hassle sale might need to be.

    cheers all
     
  18. Bradley

    Bradley F1 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2006
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    If you want to just "sit and look at them," you better plan to do that forever; because once you do want to start driving it, you'll find that the injectors are clogged, the tires have rotted, the rubber seals, gaskets, and belts need replacing, dead batteries, corrosion, rust, etc., etc., etc.

    So I'd rather have "issues" with a car I actually drive than make it sit still and have "issues" anyway.
     
  19. M.James

    M.James F1 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2003
    2,721
    Worcester, MA
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    Michael.C.James
    A suspension rebuild is not a 'high-dollar' proposition, and is a great project for the DIY person. If you're going-in to do a complete valve job, new bearings, and pistons/rings, you're looking at $25K just in engine work alone. With 140K on the clock, you'll have to check piston wear as well as liners....and every gasket and seal in the motor. You'll be upside-down before you get halfway done. I wouldn't do it if you're trying to sell the car - I WOULD do it if you're going to put another 100K miles on the engine and enjoy it.
     
  20. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,707
    colorado
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    Giovanni Pasquale
    #70 cavallo_nero, Jan 5, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    bought my 78 308 GTS Euro 11 years ago for 24 grand from the original owner off ebay. it needed nothing when i bought it - original paint etc and very clean with 51000 KM on the clock (about 32000 miles). since then, i have put at least 55 grand into the car - mostly upgrades and a 22K strip/respray. the car has never let me down - always got me there and back. and yes, i had a service bill one time of 22 grand for a major (dave helms), and a whole lot of maintenance (wheel bearings, brakes, rotors, driveshafts, degreeing cams, water pump, cam drive gears, bearings, valve adj., new sump etc etc - so - it all adds up). i have also upraded to TWM ITB Fuel injection and electromotive. this car rocks!!
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  21. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    pit bull
    Yeah that's the reality of it I guess. I like the dream that one day I might be able to transform one of the $15k cheapie slugs into a serious performer and get $30k for it. If guys would put $25k value on a rebuild that might not be such a hard sell, and throw in the fact that it's an easy to maintain 2V car with a sorted suspension that can keep up with a 360 (Add $5k for a turbo and we take care of the 430's while we're at it :)) ... aaah ... but the a/c LOL.

    Ignoring the cost to build the car for a minute ... would guys even step up to $25k if such a beast were available? Or a better way to ask the question ... what would compel a person to spend $30-$35k on a 308 and ignore the mileage? (besides a Newman restoration job :))
     
  22. AZDoug

    AZDoug Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2009
    1,606
    Along the Verde , AZ
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    Doug
    I look at these numbers being bandied about for paint, motor rebuilds etc,and have to wonder if y'all just go to the most expensive F car dealer in the area to get the work done figuring the most expensive has to be better?

    I have a quote for $6-$7K for complete bare metal strip and respray to show quality paint and straightness, and I have used this guy before,and yes, it is Autorama quality work (no body repair included).

    A motor rebuild can be done for $10K. Easily. Including cam regrinds and new pistons. If you are willing to do some of your own work including R&R of the motor, and only replace parts that need to be replaced rather than simply flopping open the check book, (assuming nothing major is destroyed on the motor), and pick the right motor shop, being mechanically inclined helps to pick the right shop. Add a grand or two if synchros and trans bearings need to be replaced. Yes, you can have a mechanic sit there and take his time and polish things that don't really need to be polished, all the time paying the shop $120/hour, or you can treat it like a normal motor, which it is, and follow the assembly specs and avoid the unnecessary labor charges.

    Complete suspension rebuild and shocks was $1000 for all parts and bushing,and ball joints and shocks and springs and CV joint boots, plus 20 hours of my labor.

    Doug
     
  23. ramosel

    ramosel Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2004
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    R Moseley
    It certainly does!! Great looking car!!! Older but twin brother of mine!

    Rick
     
  24. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Some of the guys who do this for a living should be wearing ski masks :).
     
  25. Irishman

    Irishman F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2005
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    Kevin
    Wow! Very nice. And I too have a '78.

    I came to grips with the Electromotive and embraced that.

    But the carbs? For me that is the soul of this car. I can't do the injection thing.

    There are some nice 20K 308s out there. But, for the most part I reckon most need "a lot".

    If you look at that black '78 and how well sorted it is it makes sense what a great example it is given what went into it. Like most cars great restoration just doesn't make any financial sense*.

    Kevin

    *Exception lately: Porsche 356 - restored and nice examples just keep rising
     

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