The $20,000 308....

You obviously have NOT priced 308 engine parts lately - your numbers are still coming from 1996, when stuff was plentiful. Go back and do your homework on what a set of pistons, rings and circlips will run you - never mind factory pistons. Go with an aftermarket set - its still no 'bargain', since each set will require some custom-fab to match whatever your bore/stroke/compression targets are after someone who knows what they're doing measures everything. Before we go there, let's do a complete set of heads first. Price a new set of head gaskets from Elring. Also add factory valves - note that intake as well as exhaust valves are different prices. Also add a complete set of valve guides, and then price a spare valve spring or two.....then add Machine-Shop labor to work the heads, install and spec everthing, and assemble - you're already at $7,000 or MORE, and you haven't even touched the engine block yet, no pistons, no piston rings, no gaskets, no seals, no bearings, no hoses......you can't get a SINGLE 308 QV Nikasil cylinder liner for less than $420 EACH today. They 'used' to be around $100, most shops say they're NLA.

You don't have a clue, my friend.

 

I recently acquired my 1981 euro GTBi off ebay for a Buy It Now price of $16,500. It was advertised correctly as a DIY special, needing some minor body/paint work and lots of (deferred)routine service. The car had been in storage for some time.I obviously took somewhat of a chance in acquiring this car , on line with no PPI, but I took a lot of comfort in the fact that it was being offered by a reputable dealer ( Peter Sweeney at Forza), with whom I had several detailed discussions prior to deciding to buy the car. I was not looking for a "nice" Ferrari, but I also did not want a $$$ consuming junker. The car, when it arrived, was actually nicer than I expected and so far I have not discovered any surprise problems.

I have replaced the belts / tensioners and replaced all the fluids, put in Birdman's fuse blocks, done the window motor upgrades, updated the fuel pump/check valve,replaced the thermostat and radiator cap and thats about it ( hopefully,for now). Other than getting rid of the 20yr old+ TRX's I am not going to spend any more $$ fixing this car up. I have owned a lot of sports cars over the years ( mostly Porsches) and I must say I have enjoyed working on this 308 the most that I can recall. The parts have been reasonably priced. The service procedures have been straightforward. I alsohave been pleasantly surprised by the amount of, and ease of access to the mechanical components. This forum has been a tremendous asset on several occassions when I have needed some advice. I now have a daily driver 308, that I feel is reasonably reliable, for well under $20k. So yes, fairly good examples do exist and can be obtained for under $20k.

My advice to anyone on the fence about fulfilling their dream about finally buying a 308 is to go ahead and do it..now, while prices are reasonable. Figure out what you want in a 308, educate yourself and just do it. These are neat cars that satisfy passions that only an italian exotic can possibly do. It has abysmal power, but is a blast to drive and absolutely a gorgeous design.

 

I could have written the letter above about my own 308 GTBi, except that I paid $20k exactly when I purchased it on eBay.

I do have two questions, though:

1. When you replace the 20-year-old TRXs, are you just going to buy new TRXs, or do you plan to get some 16" wheels so that you can buy 21st Century tires (and ones that don't require a second mortgage to afford)?

Superformance.uk has a set of very accurate repro 16" wheels for LESS than the cost of four new TRX tires.

2. I wouldn't exactly call 308 performance "abyssmal," although there is a thread on the subject of 308 power elsewhere here on F-Chat. By the standards of the early 80s, these cars certainly held their own.

I highly recommend Hyper-Flow cats in combination with a solid and precise engine tune, which has boosted my power back up into the range of the original carb cars.


Congratulations on your bargain-purchase 308! I hope that all F-chatters who had doubts have read these last two posts and discovered that it can, in fact, be done.

BTW, my own dog, a lab/border collie, is "Dino," so I love your screen name!

 

definitely would dispose of the 390 wheels....I like the 360 and 550 rims, but the drawback would be running front wheels on all corners. I personally like the repro 16" option the best.

maybe "abysmal" was a little harsh....but these cars are underpowered, especially in light of today's standards. My 1980 911SC only had around 180 hp....it was a pig..but you are correct... these were " performance cars" in 1980. Glad we have moved up and on.

My car is a euro and I have no cats or smog equipment, but thanks for the performance tip.

Love the dog name! BTW that reminds me, if you haven't yet read it, Garth Stein's book, The Art of Racing in The Rain, is an excellent book for ferrari/racing fans and dog lovers. The dog's name in the book is Enzo. Terrific book!

 

In 2003 I bought my 1977 308 GTB off eBay, sight unseen for $18K. Not only was I buying a car I had not seen in person or done a PPI on, I didn't even know what a PPI was. I had no idea what a 308 could cost to fix, or what kinds of things could be wrong with it. I had never even seen a 308 in person. Mine was the first Ferrari I ever touched or sat in. I had tears in my eyes when it rolled off the truck. I was lucky that the seller was honest about what needed doing on the car. I got really lucky. In hindsight, I would never buy another one with so little clue!

That being said, if I wanted a perfect car, it would have been much cheaper in the long run to save up and buy a mint $35K car. By the time I am done with getting this car perfect, I'll have at least that much in it I'm sure. Maybe more.

The difference is that from the get go I had a decent (not perfect) looking car that I could drive--and it put a smile on my face.

Pay it all now or pay a little more to pay as you go...sort of like financing.

I'm happy I did it the way I did. Working on the car has allowed me to learn a ton about these cars. I have enjoyed working on the car almost as much as driving it. (Well, maybe not that much, but I do love to go out in the garage and tinker on the car, especially since I bought my lift and it's easy.)

Meanwhile, I get to drive it rather than dream about owning one, and I didn't need to finance it. And the fact that it's not a perfect car means I don't stress as much about getting it dirty or parking it while I have dinner at a restaurant.

I still won't drive her in the rain though.

Birdman

 

Funny you'd say that Dino . I thought my first Fcar - back then a 'lowly' Dino 246GT- was a blazing rocket at 195 Euro hp. Could not BELIEVE how fast it was. The experience made up any power deficit.

Years later, all those 3.2 Carreras you and I enjoyed were a 'manly' 201 hp. Wowzers, we were moving then!

Agreed here folks. If you're a car lover OR a dog lover OR perhaps both, this book is beyond reproach. Warning: DO NOT READ the silly jacket cover diatribe; just start at page 1 and read the book, sans expectation. You will be blown away.

Sorry for the mild hijack. I've thought of Dino's car many times in this discussion, glad he made an appearance. The cars are out there for sure. A prudent shopper can score.

 

the later US carreras (86 or so on up) had 217 hp.

The Carrera also isn't super heavy, is geared well and gets great traction. It's therefore a pretty quick car, with the car mags of the day getting em from 0-60 in 5.9 to 6.5 seconds or so (different time from different magazines). Very, very quick for the 80s.

 

+1.

Let's remain respectful, even when we disagree, and let's not forget one thing:

No matter whether you prefer the GTB or GTS, no matter whether you have a "slow" stock "i" model, a carbed model, a QV, an original fiberglass model, or a steel version; no matter whether you prefer the US or "Euro" specs, no matter whether your car has 3000 miles or 100,000+ . . .

. . . and no matter if it's "slow" by today's standards. . .

The 308 is a he11 of a lot of fun to drive, and the most beautiful car ever made.

 

Here is a 77 Dino from my regional CL for $19k.

http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/ctd/1527301977.html


I have no connection with the seller for the record. I just happened upon it tonight and since this was the topic thought I would throw it out there.

I have not seen the car, but I know there are some FChatters in the area who might be able to check it out for someone here. I am about 1-1.5 hours away.


PDG

 

I very much "have a clue".

The motor shop I use used to build IRL motors, they now build other racing motors, they are fully competent.

I do not need cylinder liners, I am referring to a basic motor rebuild. Light bore (.5MM), rings, valve job, gaskets, babbit bearings, pistons, misc parts and labor as needed.

New wiseco pistons are ~$1600.

Head gaskets are ~$150 each, (elring). Ferrea exh valves are $65 each (times 8).

Valve shims are $5 each, if you don't want a yellow horse on the box

A spring tester will verify if any valve springs need replacing, no need to replace them just because you can, or you are spending the customers money. And I can get springs MADE for $50 each, if needed.

Cam regrind is $1400 for 4 cams.

I fail to see where we get to $7K for head work. Valve guides are valve guides if they need to be replaced, BMW valve guide seals work fine. It is a damn motor, it isn't the Virgin Mary that needs only holy water blessed parts.

Yes, you can spend $25K on a motor, but why, unless you think spending $25K is better than spending less, or you are in the Ferrari motor building business.

Hell, I was quoted less that $25K to turn my motor into a 3.5 liter motor, including new crank, liners, head porting, cam work, pistons, upgrade bearing drives, water pump, etc,and you tell me a simple rebuild is $25K?

I have come to the conclusion that the following applies to quoting Ferrari repair jobs.

Price of work: $xx.xx

Surcharge because it is a Ferrari: Multiply by 2

Surcharge because the owner might be ****** and will hound me about every little thing forever: Multiply times 3.

I will do fine with my rebuild, my current estimate, including machine shop work and short block assembly labor is $8400, plus another $500 if they assemble the heads to the block and degree the cams.

Please give me a detailed breakdown of your parts cost and labor hours for a head job, and short block rebuild.

Doug

 

BTW, the CPI index in 1996 was 157, the CPI index in 2009 was 215.

215/157 X$10,000 is $13,700.

Doug

 

Its funny Doug because I think you explained both points. When you buy engine rebuild parts at GT carparts you pay pretty much what you are talking about but as soon as you buy those parts from many many other sources (who btw may also order them from GT Carparts) those prices will multiply x3 easily and quickly. So its easy to understand that somebody would draw the conclusion that those higher prices are the "actual" prices.

Helmut

 

I have to add that Russ at Ferrparts also has very fair prices and will try to chase down little parts for you.

 

And further more, how much unnecessary machine work is added on because it is "the right way to do it"?

Case in point: Deck torque plate honing.

Did the factory torque plate hone the motors?

Hell, no, they honed the cylinders and THEN dropped them into the block. And nobody torque plate honed in the 1970's and 1980's even in non linered motors

No we are led to believe that you MUST torque plate hone, or the motor is crap.

The fact is, in this deep stud motor, all the cylinder distortion occurs at the bottom of the cylinder where pressures are greatly reduced,and and bore distortion leakage is minuscule.

How much extra for torque plate honing is being charged here, $1000, maybe $2000?

Rip offs and scams.

Doug

 

Interesting analysis of the CPI, but Ferrari parts pricing, coupled with the falling dollar don't follow the same rules.

 

Cliff
While I can't disagree with your statement, I cant help but laugh at who it is coming from. You have been one of the most confrontational and juvenile people I have ever seen on F-chat.

 

Doug, too many variables to say a 2V 308 engine can have a simple rebuild. Its easy to price it before you open it up. Since many 308's are held together with zip-ties and running 318 chrysler distributor caps to cut running costs, regular coolant flushes are probably the last thing on the owners mind. Its you and me that open the engine and find corroded cylinder o-ring lands, block is junk or silicone it back together and cross your fingers. A QV needing liners will ruin your day fast, the cost to build one of them makes you wish you had a boxer in the garage instead. Building your own engine vs a shop building it for you makes a world of difference, your time is free. If you have to spend 2 days getting heads off a 2V engine no big deal but what does that add to the cost at a shop? Nobody can have a shop rebuild a 308 engine for $8K if they're paying someone to do it all.

 

Did you know elring makes the gaskets in spain now not germany and ive heard there are quality issues? Also the last time I bought elring headgaskets I paid $499 cdn each for a 308 before they made them in spain. Maybe prices came down but $150 seems too good to be true.

 

Count me in as one of the "bottom fedders"

I bought my 308 on ebay, with known issues for 20K But it wasnt just another Ferrari its one that I wanted a 308 GTB and blue.

So I got the options I wanted and it needed some work and I love to play with my cars so I jumped on it.

I did end up with a couple things I didn't think Id have to spend cash on, Like the brakes were so bad I couldn't get them apart so I ended up sending them out for rebuild.

And I had to have the fuel distributor rebuilt something I had hoped to avoid but wasn't suprised by it because I did the research on the cars.

I love my ferrari its alot of fun.

 

will call the seller today. thanks for posting.

 

After some thought, my definition of a motor rebuild may not be the same as someone elses.

To me, motor rebuild is block and heads, not the transaxle, not the clutch, not new alternator and starter,and not rebuild the AC system while I am at it. It also does not include removing or reinstalling the motor, or rebuilding the carbs and installing new throttle shaft bearings or bushing, etc.

This is what I have so far for my 2V project:

New oversize pistons, rings, wrist pins and retainers: $1570

Complete gasket set, every gasket you will need for motor AND trans: $890

All new rod and main bearings: $356

Cam belts: $50

Bearings for cam drives and tensioners: $245

New exhaust valves: $520 (2V motor)

Total parts: $3631. Add $1400 if you want your cams reprofiled

ARP rod bolts will be $300 or so more, if needed

40 hours machine shop labor and shortblock and head reassembly @ $80/hr: $3200

It may take two days to get the heads off the motor, but it doesn't take 16 hours constant labor, and when I deliver my motor to the shop, it will have the heads off of it.

I can rebuild the trans, Probably need two synchros, and maybe some bearings and 20 hours of my labor.

To others, motor rebuild is dropping off the car and picking it up four weeks later ready to drive with exerything from the wheel spindles to the air cleaner totally rebuilt and refurbished.

That said, I have noticed a tremendous difference if speed of work at different shops, some shops have mechanics that are far more organized,and can get things done in one half teh labor hours as compared to other shops, part of which,m is some mechanics simply work faster and more efficiently than others.

I was involved in a time vs work study investigation on industrial plant maintenance mechanic time usage, about 28 years ago. On average, out of an 8 hour day, most mechanics only spent about 2 hours actually working, the rest of the time was fetching tools, walking back to the shop to ask questions, ordering parts, or going to the parts room to get parts, bathroom breaks, etc.

More efficiently organized maintenance departs got about 4 hours of actual work per employee.

I see the same thing in some auto repair shops, some get twice as much done in half the time, which at $100/hour, adds up fast.

Doug

 

Doug, I agree with you. An engine rebuild is not an engine overhaul of every component. It is the wear items and reuse of most major components. I too would provide my builder with the heads separated from the block.

I know alot of folks say it's just a motor, but it's not just a motor the reason Ferrari is Ferrari is their engines otherwise it's a whatever. As my engine guy said they pretty much sqeeze all the HP they can at stock. To get more out of a 308 motor cost loads of money as both the bottom end and top end need to be redone, unless it's from forced induction and that can lead to a whole new set of problems.

In this market, you may be able to get a good deal on labor as everyone is slower at the upper end. Vintage racing is suffering and the engine guys are not as busy as they would like.