the 330GTCFERRARI fix all my problems thread

Which pro do you use?

Regards,

Art S.

PS. $30K is realistic ballpark.

 

330GTC, what is your name by the way? Can I say you know you have asked about mechanics before and not really listened to what people said. There are shops in the area people have recommended and ones people in the area have not recommended. You have to get into a groove with these old cars. And at the same time there is a give an take with this community where we know who we are in our geographic areas and are helpful to each other. For instance in another thread you said "you have a pro that rebuilds 12 a year" but you mention no names. If you are so sure of him why even ask? Everyone wants to help but it would be great to know who we are talking to.

 

30K for what?
A D and I?
For parts? New ones?
Cleaning old ones? stripping, painting, plating? What about all of the stickers an ID plates
Carb Re-Man?
Distributor Re-Man?
Lab fees-(x-rays, magnaflux, etc)
Machine shop fees?
Scratch fab fees for un-obtainuium parts?
welding and hardware manufacture?

LABOR for assembler...
The DYNO?
Installation?

30K-Really? How?
either they are NOT using what they say they are using,
they are not "doing" everything they say they are doing,
or,
they are paying for the privaledge of working on some guys Ferrari(THAAATS rich....:-} )
Lastly-if in CA, double it... for background cost of doing business factors which lift costs on ALL boats....
Guys that do this are backlogged for years, or, they are getting old and just not doing it much....in any event, this is a cost basis not heard for 250s since the early 90s for non-racing car SOHC motors....{an LM or a GTO-dry sumped racing motor-is easily an order of magnitude more...nobody will admit it, but it is expensive beyond the average persons comprehension)

these things are 50 years old, I've been having to MAKE stuff from billet for Daytonas starting in the early 1990s!

Since the beginning of this decade when the latest price bubble started to rise, almost all old stashes of spares and overhaul parts have been since exhausted..now, everything is made in CHINA, and most people know what THAT means, hence, an eve rincreasing amount of stuff has to be hand made, or, made in germany-just as expensive!
FWIW...
There is an old saying: "these cars were for rich guys then, and for richer guys today....."

TRUTH: a good job will be time and materialks...anybody who demands a quote and that the quote be lived to will politely be shown the door and not asked to come back....this isn't getting a brake job on the Benz at the indepen dent shop...its custom craftsmanship-like it or not....DIY skills can ONLY get you so far...

 

The topic has been discussed before.

Sure enough, these are getting of age now, and they sure didn't get cheaper to run over time, but 60k is a load of money, and I'd be very interested to see an invoice for a typical rebuild that totals to that amount, and what it entails.

 

And likely you're still on the low end for any sort of quality work...if that matters.

 

I defer to your wisdom there, you would know.


Just to add a different color to this thread, can anyone cite what might be done differently or to a higher level with a LM or GTO engine? 335s mentioned earlier that in essence more would be done, please explain. I'd like to know what a 100k GTO rebuild entails.

 

Plenty! PM with your phone number.

 

+330&365!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm with you.
Particularly in Aussie,most of us are a lot more giving with our private stuff.

 

Hi Yale,

If Francois is backed up, which is certainly possible, what about Vinny Latino (Auto Elite)? I do not have any personal experience, but I have heard good things second hand. It would be easier than sending his car up to RPM in VT. Any thoughts?

 

Again all depends what you are doing. If you start with a new crankshaft, yes it happens if already rectified beyond tolerance , new pistons, liners, conrods ,camshafts, etc rebuild carburators , test everything, I tell you from experience it is expensive and beyond what was quoted.
Other experience is that while you take the engine off, you also look at clutch, gearbox and flywheel...
Further experience is that if you do only top or bottom end, you always end up doing the work twice...so rather do it once properly.

 

Well the mystery man does not seem to really want to have a conversation about this and when people make suggestions he just keeps asking about different shops in a strange public way. So he keeps his own identity hidden (even his first name) but wants people to publicly talk about others. It's obvious he doesn't want to go to Francois or he would have by now. As many here know, the world of Ferrari shops is one of the most backbiting ones in the car scene. I think there are negative things said about every shop in the country. TS bad mouths most of the East Coast shops it seems and yet some people send their cars east to be worked on just as some people send thier cars west to Patrick Otis etc.

There is a lot of personal experience here in favor and against most shops you can name, you have to have private conversations and weigh people's actual experiences to figure out who you are going to trust.

 

Complete gentleman with two generations of knowledge rarely found anywhere else these days.

Bill

 

I was wondering if the SWB you have is a Competizione or Road version? What went wrong with the engine and what parts were needed for the rebuild when the engine blew up when you raced it in Tour Auto?

 

One of the issues is "the unknown"...specifically what's been done in the past. And then there's the issue of parts. With a limited supply, the laws of economics come into play regarding parts pricing. And to what cosmetic level is desired? And then there's the issue of the Webers and ignition distributors; they'll need to be rebuilt professionally. Casting porosity, yet another issue to contend with. In essence, all bets are off when tackling a 50 year old engine...

 

Rebuilding carbs, distributors, clutch, 'box, flywheel surface, head machining, valve seats, valves, guides, springs, cams, liners, pistons, bearings, align honing, I get all that, I really do, all too well actually. But someone please tell me why it's considered brain surgery on a vintage V12. I know the cost of having custom guides, liners, pistons, valves, springs, everything is to have fabricated and know exactly where to go and in what country and who to speak with to have this stuff done, but please someone tell me what I'm missing in terms of a $100k rebuild. The cost would not surprise me, but I'm having difficulty 'seeing it' if you know what I mean. Someone please be more literal with me lol.

I've been around the block with other Ferrari engines mainly from the 70s and 80s and know what it's like to have to search for and have parts made. I've also been around the block with a lot of Porsche engines and know how night and day different they are to rebuild correctly. I'm not from Missouri (the 'show me' state) but for a second pretend I am so I can understand.

 

Purchasing Early S from them now...very helpful in facilitating the sale.....

 

Curiousity got the better of me this morning so I made up an 'estimate', this is considering the engine is out in front of me on the floor already. Someone please tell me how 'off' or 'on' I might be. I can see things going a bit higher especially if the engine had some crazy major issue coming in or had sat for an extended period.

My ‘V12 estimate’ (2 cam)
8.0 disassemble engine
5.0 rebuild carbs
8.0 ‘hot tank’ and clean parts
8.0 miscellaneous fabricating
20.0 engine assembly and cam timing
Carb rebuild kit (3) $100 ea $300
Custom liners (12) $200 ea $2400
Pistons/rings (12) $2200
Main and rod bearings $1300
Custom guides (24) $25 ea $600
Custom valves (24) $35 ea $840
Valves Springs (24) $21 ea $504
Connecting rods (12) $200 ea $2400
New crankshaft (if needed) $7000
Gasket set $1500
Recondition cams $2500
Rebuild distributors: $1000
New distributor caps, points, wires, $1800
Machine shop services:
Head work: new valve seats, install new valves/guides as above, new springs as above, resurface, clean, labor only: $2500
Block work: align hone, remove old liners and install new liners, resurface deck, new stud hardware, measure new crank to assure proper saddle fit, clean: $4000


$6125 my labor
$6500 machine shop labor
$4300 outsource labor for cams and distributors
$19344 parts (including new crank!)
$36269.00
+

Miscellaneous ball bearings, chains, alternator and starter rebuilds, flywheel surface, clutch rebuild, sealants, oil, water pump stuff, call it $40k ish at the end of the day.

 

I have 6.75 hrs into removing one head and 6.25 hrs into straightening the body and boring the throttle shaft bores on one carb, yet to be assembled. I have every specialty tool I need for each and every job and am well familure with every one of them.

I Wish (!) I was as quick as you estimated, these would actually be a profit center rather than a pain. Apples to Oranges? Maybe.

 

Me, too as I'm figuring, based on real world experiences, about triple the labor times John is....and that doesn't including yanking the lump or re-installation and tuning. Or do we leave that part to the owner... ;-)

 

Ok so perhaps call it 35-40 hours disassembly. Do these things really take more than 20 hours to assemble????? R and I and be more than 20 hours. Still, that's just a few thousand more on the pile and hardly the 60-100k some say it can be. I suppose the builds pushing six figures are the ones which entail serious issues in general with the motor?

 

You can buy a good new crank for $7k? I thought they would be more.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Right. There is a company -I forget the name- making them for around $6500 if I remember right.

 

SWB was street version, but with some race history.
Engine was new,,or supposed to be. In fact block was new (FC) and head was supposed to. But was not meant to be..so one of the casting plugs fell out , clearly not properly fixed, and water went out , mixed with oil etc. drove to Parc Ferme with the car after putting some oil back,,,probably destroyed what was left.
So we did everything, I don't think we kept the crankshaft and rebuilt everything up...
The MM engine was really worn out, and we had to start from a new crankshaft and then everything up.
The 275 engine had been redone fully for previous owner and a valve broke also during TA, spilling a lot of stuff in corner at Le Castellet. Here the valve pieces were compressed between the piston and the head, the head proved softer with a big hole. Did not keep the car to go through the pain of rebuilding though!
Finally the LM, SWB replacement, ended up with oil in the water, and vice versa, and in all the inner tubes that goes from front to back... Well first oil on the floor as the pressure sensor leaked..but then with a porous block, already a replacement block, the original one sitting in a crate, well protected. But we could not even re use the crankshaft, so we started by a correct period unstamped block and rebuilt everything .
I don't think I am particularly violent with engines and cars in general, not even driving them to the limit (rev limit!). but if we don't keep cars in museum and drive them for thousands of kilometers, we need them in good shape.
Finally as Bryan P will know, the most complicated engines to rebuilt are the 4 cyl Mondial ones as the head is pretty complex with fragile rockers and the head does not come out, if I am not mistaken. We rebuilt one, and the other MD one seem to have been properly rebuilt..
So rebuilding engines seem for me a regular feature of a F car, as much as changing the tires ( when you get a new car) . But when properly done, it shoul last for life or as long as you keep the car! This is why I would never take short cuts when rebuilding engines, to avoid doing them again and again, or the top and then the bottom etc etc