The 355-Exposed? Covered Up? or Overlooked ????

Thank you James for both your kind offer and excellent questionaire. But, I do not think there will be enough participation or data to warrant it. Any help and useful insights are not dependant on 355 ownership.

With a known fix already available, people who have not upgraded will eventually replace their earlier style valve guides no matter what. Why? Because they have failed, worn, etc? If that is truly the case, it would be an obvious "YES" because it is absolutely necessary.
But others, when they have the engine out, may elect to have this done as a preventive measure. Why? For a couple of reasons: (1)If they ever plan on selling their car they know one of the first questions a potential informed buyer will ask is,"Have the valve guides been replace?". (2)Because of what they've heard thru the grapevine and every other source i.e."Valve guides in pre 99 cars are all bad". In this scenerio they will even replace non issue earlier guides.

Are we kicking or beating a dead horse? Or, are we dealing with a Jason from the Halloween movie? I don't know for sure.....do you?

I want to insert some comments/questions here for your consideration. They may or may not be applicable in the 355 problem solving equation. That is something for you to decide.

Have you ever wondered why that nice soft pliable,bendable rubber or pliable, bendable plastic under the hood gets stiff and hard, and cracks or breaks sometimes just by looking at it the wrong way, not to mention God forbid,if you touch it?...lol.

Sure we have. That is just because of the high temperatures in the engine bay...right? Yes, that is the primary cause. But for those who really want to know the "whys"(I know...new word here for Websters'), my question to you is "Why"?

Let me give you an over simplified analogy. When I lived in England as a youngster back in the early 50's, one of my chores was to bring in coal from the storage bin for our fireplace. The coal was kinda soft and rubbed-off on me to the point where my hands looked like they belonged to someone other than a caucasian. One day my mother was doing dishes, and as it was her custom to remove her wedding set for this chore I began to play with them...in a few minutes my mother began to tell me about how the coal used in the fireplace turned into that shiney sparkling stone mounted in her ring. WOW, I never thought that could have ever been possible. It was not until much later in life that I fully understood that almost magical transformation. The kinda soft coal if subjected to enough heat and pressure over a protracted period of time drastically changes its physical properties due to changes in its molecular structure, the result of which is called a diamond.

Having bored you with that little analogy I will now add another comment.
That new part "off the shelf" that you just installed changes with use. Having had the opportunity to get a glimpse at Porsche's F1 engine developement for TAG/Heuer I was to say the least in shock....I thought I knew alot and was pretty smart going in, but man-oh-man I left there feeling like an idiot. Just one little example you may find interesting when discussing the 355 headers:
The F1 headers were weighed at ambient temperature...then they were heated to full race temperature and weighed....why? Because they change weight...some materials lose weight and some actually gain weight when subjected to the same high temperatures. You may have already known this, but I didn't. I am a scientist and not technically an engineer even though I do the work of one.

Summing this up.....the molecular structure of parts change with heat over time(can be either a short period or long dependeing upon the material)....add pressure and the change is even more dramatic. With a change in molecular structure the physical properties also change. When parts/components are heated to high temperatures over time, and subjected to pressure/stress you can measure the degradation/wear thru weight variance from a known standard. I am going to really over simplify this using the headers as an example: the hot exhaust gas(fluid) under pressure begins to remove molecules of the header material..similar to what happens when cutting metal with a plasma cutter or blow torch....the header in turn begins to degrade/wear and the degree of degradation/wear can be measured by weight loss.

Something I will not get into because it is sooooo complex is that, physical measurements are not always indicative of the true accurate degradation/wear of a part. I personally find this very very interesting.

So if you still think past threads and any other various articles you've read about valve guides,headers, etc. have been exhaustive/complete/definitive and are the "end all" so as not to require further discussion then so be it.
For others, well they don't really give a sh*t and could care less, especially if they have already spent big$$$ for the upgrade.

As for me and a few others the questions still remain unanswered.

 

Thank you Kevin for your comments.

"Beaten to death? Is this synonymous with "beating thin air"?

"My limitless time"? Maybe, but I choose not to waste anymore of it on your misconceptions.

Run on sentences? Absolutely the best I have ever produced! I am trying to correct this problem.....would you please do the same with your spelling?

Amnesia? If you will look at the link ID you provided and compare it to the link ID posted by Tonyh you will see they are different. Using link ID and not user ID as my reference I did not realize they led to the same article. If I did in fact suffer any "amnesia" it was because of your psychological disturbance.

"Trying to assist others"? Would you lead your thirsty horse to a poisoned watering hole?

"The MOST knowledgeable individuals alive-those that design/build cars"? Surely you must be refering to the Ford Pinto rear gas tank design/build.

"Conversations with the factory and its representatives"? Is this the same as going to court where the "finder of fact" require those testifying to swear, to "tell the truth and nothing but the truth"?

As for leaving the class....I have but one final comment, "don't let the door hit you in the v*gina on the way out".

P.S. Kevin,you failed to address my reply to your "reinvent the wheel" statement!

 

"Perhaps"?
Bob,the way you guys are going it's just a matter of time. One thing I can honestly say about the 348 brothers mentioned...some of you under-estimate and under-rate your abilities/talents.
I am glad you can't do the "mind-meld" thingy atleast on me, because you would then be able to see that my old mind is cramed-full of useless information...lol

 

James, again thank you for offering to help.....your suggestions are excellent and is exactly how I would proceed, the only problem is the burden it would place on shops/mechanics. I knew in advance that data acquisition was going to be difficult, and fully understand Dave's position.

Dave,
Sorry for the delay in my response. One word or statement may take me hours or even days to think thru.....then I have to write it in a coherent way so it can be understood by all. I do not enjoy writing and even more so when I have to do it on a computer. With the complexity of the topics under discussion and associated resistance by some I am beginning to hate my own thread...lol.

In reference to my post(#40), I am glad you made the statement,"You moved on into headers...Get back to the guides". I had expected the later part of that post to illicit a response more along the lines of,"Bruce what you're saying you should have already known from high school phyiscal science classes". And my respose would have been,"you're absolutely right". Though surprised with your statement it nevertheless produced the same result i.e. opened the door for what follows:

Herein lies the current problem with logic, especially with the deductive type. For the most part we have forgotten how to use our brains i.e. the thought processes.

In this modern era we have instant everything, drive-thru everything...we have spell check,calculators,computers,in-car navigation,even bolt on high performance engine systems, and so forth.
We have relinquished most of our problem solving to others and electronics. Most of the time what we've been taught we do not use.....and even though we may posses knowledge we may lack the ability to apply it. And when we have this knowledge and the ability to apply, we then may be limited in its use due to preconceived thought patterns i.e. which is called "thinking inside the box".

Post #40 was a thinking exercise. I had not in fact moved on into headers, I just used the headers as an example to explain a known scientific/engineering fact. What was the purpose of my presenting it like that? In the simpliest way I was trying to get you to think "outside the box"(this is what those 348 brothers I mentioned are doing). This proven fact holds true not just for headers alone, but valve guides,valves,crank and on and on. That proven fact by the way is what led to the developement of alloys.

You may at this point either be bored to death or offended at my almost high school like approach but please bear with me.

Bruce,why are you now talking about alloys? Remember the molecular changes with corresponding changes in physical properties? Well well well, alloys are developed to resist those changes...to be as inert as possible to the environment in which they are placed....to remain stable....and in some instances provide weight reduction over other heavier materials that can provide the same stability.

OK Bruce what is the point of all this crap?

I have never built an F1 engine(2.4L V8, approx 850hp) designed to last approx. 200 miles, but I have worked on a 3.0L boxer 6cyl race engine approx. 825hp that could last for approx. 3,200 miles of flat out racing.
Can you guess which valve guide was used? Was it the whimpy "can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag" bronze alloy with no sponser, or the cast iron "heavy weight champion of the world" sintered steel sponsered by John Deere Tractor?

I want to ask some questions now that I do not have the answers too:

1. What alloy and size guides(sidewall thickness) were used in 348?

2. Were early 355 guides same alloy?

3. Sidewall thickness of early 355 bronze guide?

4. If going from a 2 to 4 valve head is equal to going 50 miles down the road, how far in distance would you estimate going from 4 to 5 valve head would be?

5. Why did Ferrari start off using bronze alloy and then switch to sintered steel?

6. Alloy of sintered steel guide and sidewall thickness?


Hopefully your "thinking cap" is on, and that your interest in the valve guides has been renewed. I have tried to give you some new angles(hmmm ...very interesting) and approaches that may help.


Were the conversations with FNA and FS the "whole truth and nothing but the truth" i.e. did they expose themselves? Or, Cover themselves up?

I can remember when I was considering enrollment for the doctorate program(no, I never followed through with that notion) and one of my professor's told me that the hardest part of the thesis was coming up with the right question......did we overlook asking Ferrari the right questions?

Even if we had, would they have answered truthfully?

Feedback PLEASE......

P.S I know this valve guide stuff is a little stuffy..lol. But we are going to have some really fun times with the exhaust system...I hope.

 

Jay I can certainly understand your position. I greatly appreciate your offer for metallurgical analysis.......I just hope someone can donate a 355 bronze and a sintered steel guide for analysis....maybe even a 94/95 348 guide also.
Again thanks. Regards,Bruce

 

I am just going to try a little quickie post here. Honestly, this thread is wearing me out(pun intended) and I need some playtime.

I have already reached some conclusions!!!!!! My conclusions are based solely on assumptions(I know this is the lowest form of thinking..it has to be since its spelling starts with a-s-s..lol).

In looking at this problem before any metallurgical analysis I assumed that valve guides were properly specified by the engineer and the manufacturer followed those specifications and used quality material. My conclusion hints at the mysterious dilemma i.e. "why some and not others".

If metallurgical analysis proves otherwise, then my scenario and conclusions will be worth exactly the same as Confederate money was after the civil war.....a big fat "0". And can be used in the same way it was used back then in out-houses throughout the good ole south. Hmmm...wonder how those Confederate dollars were used?

Here is a clue that may help you, as you ponder the depths of the secret life of a valve guide:

The valve guide is really a bearing. Yep, with that valve stem moving up and down in the confines of the guide bore it becomes a bearing. Well Bruce what kind of bearing is it? Let me see...hmmm is it a wheel bearing? NO. How about a crank bearing? NOPE. I know, I know...a sleeve bearing? F*ck NO.
It's a slide bearing....and for it to do its thing properly what are the dynamics involved?

P.S. Damn NoDought....I love the way you think! Talking about "thinking outside the box"....your comments are way beyond exotic...they are in another universe. If I had a race team you would definitely be a part of it...for sure.

Dave Helms you would be on my team for reasons that are too numerous to mention.

UConn, though you are not subjected to these problems(lucky you), you have nevertheless come to our aid and assistance. And for that you are a team member also.

James in Denver, even though you don't own the problem every good race team needs data acquisition and analysis...you are hired.

355, you are a thinker...welcome aboard

Last but definitely not least is FBB...you sly fox. Tellin me your not already smart. Get over here you rascal. We think alike. As a matter of fact a comment you just posted is exactly where I'm at in my "conclusion based on assumption" thingy.

 

Hope you noticed I intentionally changed your user name. "Dought" is an old Scottish?North England word meaning "to be able".."to thrive,prosper,and do well"...and with the way you think I thought this word play would be appropriate...discard the "No" prefix.
Love Alabama...got my undergraduate degree at TSU in Troy. one of my graduate degrees at UAB and later studied at the Marshall Space FC.
Would love to go to your track......last time I was at an AL track was back in 1975 at Talladega with the Porsche 917-30....Mark Donohue set the world closed-course speed record.