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The $45, 000.00 clutch for a California????

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by David Charles, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
    37
    Full Name:
    Richard Boddington
    Greetings Gentlemen,

    I am seriously looking at buying a used Ferrari California. I had a very informative discussion with the service manager of a ferrari dealer here in Ontario, Canada. He wanted me to know that replacing the clutch/transmission unit on a California was $45, 000.00 Canadian dollars. And as he pointed out they have done several. Forgive me for not knowing exactly the unit he is talking about, he called it the "CMT" I think?

    Question.....have any California owners here needed to replace that unit on their cars?

    I was also looking at a 2000 360, with very low miles on it. Much older tech than the California of course, but the clutch replacement on that car with parts and labour is $5000.00 Canadian dollars.

    If anyone can shed some light on this based on experience, please feel free.

    Thank-you in advance.
     
  2. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
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    My guess is he is referring to the full transmission replacement that was originally required if a sensor fails - in theory the clutch is a long life component and the transmissions can now be rebuilt

    Lots more information over the years in this section about clutches transmissions and sensors - just spend some time looking for & reading relevant threads
     
  3. tomc

    tomc F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Were they trying to sell you a warranty? I think they may have been referring to the DCT, dual clutch transmission. As stated above, failures were reported here, especially the earliest Calis, and almost entirely due to sensor failure. Consensus seems to be the sensors weren't put in the best places within the DCT and insufficient cooling led to failure. I thought the numbers I saw were $20s K for a full replacement, much less for cracking open the DCT and replacing the faulty sensors, which I understand a growing number of dealer service people can do...T
     
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  4. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    Yes, they are trying to sell me a warranty, for $6000.00 a year. I also talked to a non ferrari dealer who works on these and they have done repairs on the gear box for $30, 000.00 CA$ each. I did see there are some other threads on this, where California owners have been stung by this issue. Thanks.
     
  5. tomc

    tomc F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    $30K CDN is $23 K USD. That seems close to prices I recall for complete DCT replacement. I would ask if they have a technician trained in doing the repairs to the sensors, which involves opening the DCT, or can they just do full swaps. In the final analysis, if the warranty gives you peace of mind, go for it. It's not a lot in the grand scheme of things. You don't want to be stressing when driving your Ferrari. You'll drive it less, worry more. Not what you're buying a Ferrari for. Just my 2 cents...T
     
  6. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
    37
    Full Name:
    Richard Boddington
    Complete DCT replacement was quoted to me by the ferrari dealer here at $45, 000.00 CA$. A "repair" can apparently be done for $30, 000.00. The third party warranties I have been offered are $3500.00 a year, and only cover $5000.00 per incident. So not much use if the DCT goes. The $6000.00 warranty is basically to have a warranty on it per year if anything goes wrong, so like having the factory warranty still in force. I missed out on one at the dealer that came with a two year warranty as a 2013. If another like that comes up, I can start the $6000.00 a year warranty into the third year.

    The 360 certainly seems like a much cheaper car to run if things go wrong, they are more "fixable."
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  7. vjd3

    vjd3 Formula 3
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    #7 vjd3, Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
    It's unlikely that the entire DCT unit would need a replacement, and repairs in the US are usually in the $7k USD range, if it happens at all. It is apparently more likely to occur in the pre-2013 cars, and very rare in the California T, but you can never say never. Ferrari was including 2-year warranties (renewable) on dealer used cars, or at least they were last year, my 2015 Cali T is under that New Power warranty, and it will be renewable. In the past Steve from Boardwalk in Dallas offered an FChat discount on the warranty, but not sure it would be the same in Canada. Between that and the lack of sales tax at the time, it saved me thousands over what the local dealer was going to charge me when I renewed my 2013's original factory warranty for two years. Ironically, I didn't need to use the warranty at all during those two years ;)

    Out of warranty a few years ago, the DCT was a replace-only repair, but that is no longer the case. You certainly could ship the car to a dealer capable of making the repair if it came to it. I think the warranty is nice to have but I would probably be allergic to buying one from a dealer using scare tactics.

    To put it another way, there is very little that makes financial sense rationally owning these cars ... either the maintenance or the depreciation will get you ... so probably best to just either budget the warranty as a running expense, or just put a little bit aside monthly in a repair fund that you can tap if needed -- most people self-insure that way. In reality, these cars are not practical to squeeze in on a budget, if an unexpected repair can sink you ... and I'm sure there are things that can go wrong on any Ferrari that would cost a mint to repair, it's the nature of the beast.
     
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  8. montegoblue

    montegoblue Formula Junior

    Aug 7, 2009
    361
    Chattanooga, TN
    Well said Vic ; my advise is to buy the warranty and drive your car. Recently bought a Cali T (I need to introduce her to the group, eternal procrastinator Here) to drive as a daily with a 2 year Ferrari warranty. I have driven 3k miles in 3 months and haven’t worried a bit. It is a mental mind game I am sure, but in the past I have owned exotics without warranties and, especially with the older models, there was always a sense of trepidation when used IMO even when they worked perfectly. It all comes down to enjoyment like previously noted. Why own such beautiful cars to not enjoy them and worse, to worry about owning... Also add that the warranty covers transport to your nearest dealership and if you live far away from a dealer this is an added bonus. Of course the warranties are expensive but unfortunately nothing with the little horse comes cheap.
     
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  9. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    Yeah living in Canada and having the border to deal with shipping a car back and forth just isn't that practical. The Canadian border folks are worse than the Gestapo when it comes to getting anything "high value" back into Canada. They'll hold the car for days ensuring they collect enough "HST" a horror you Americans are exempt from. So I would most likely buy the warranty if I go with a California. Or get the 360 and skip the warranty, & just fix it as I go. If it blows up....it blows up. As for, "very little that makes financial sense rationally owning these cars," well I'm a power boat owner. If you think a ferrari is costly to keep around, try a power boat! They call a boat a hole in the water you throw money into. Here's another one, what does, B. O. A. T. stand for? Break Out Another Thousand.

    So expensive play toys that cost a fortune to keep around is not new to me :)
     
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  10. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    From what I have seen there are always California's in the shop at Ferrari getting gearbox replacement
     
  11. tomc

    tomc F1 World Champ

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    Always?
    T
     
  12. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    Yikes.
     
  13. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    In another thread someone posted the buyers guide. The guy they interviewed at the end about his California said he needed gear box replacement 2 weeks before his warranty ran out, same issue, wires burned after 5 years.
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
    18,204
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    23k usd for complete dct replace would be a bargain IMO. In the 90's the replacement of my 348 manual gearbox was 20k. That's why I decided to tear it apart and learn to fix them.
     
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  15. tomc

    tomc F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Boat owner. Is the joke true about the first and last day you own it being the best? Just kidding.
    I'd go over to the 360 forum. Horror stories of maintenance there I'm sure. As you said, not much makes sense about buying a Ferrari. But, you turn the key, punch the red button and none of that matters. Good luck in your Ferrari decision...T
     
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  16. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    Maybe Enzo Ferrari really only intended for his cars to sit in the garage and be admired when the guys come over? I'm into my sixth year of power boating, no chance I'll give it up. It's awesome. We have the worst weather in the world here, but, the best fresh water boating in the world for three brief months.

    I am taking my 16 year old son out today to "tour" the ferrari options on the table. As for the wife, well best I just buy it and bring it home, just like I did with the boat! :)
     
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  17. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
    37
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    Richard Boddington
    The "logical" plan B is for me to buy a two year old porsche and get the warranty, which right now is another 4 years and un-limited kms. They are nice sure. But I drove the California for a week in LA in December as a rental, there is a mystique to a ferrari that no other car has, I have seen how people react to it.
     
    tomc likes this.
  18. vjd3

    vjd3 Formula 3
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    Jun 3, 2005
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    I've owned a lot of 911s ... and went from a California 30 to a 991 cabriolet back to a Cali T. I love 911s, you can drive them anywhere, they are largely invisible on the street ... but they don't get my pulse racing when I start the car up. Even the 991 twin turbo, fast as it was, was not as exciting to drive as the California 30 when I drove them back to back. i'm talking about street driving, I'm sure a GT3-RS would get the pulse going, but it's not a car that you can daily drive like you can a California or conventional 911 ... and I prefer open cars.

    Really, any Ferrari can bite you hard ... you can have the headers fail on an F430 and the engine can ingest a piece of debris and you have to rebuild the whole thing. You can perform a money shift on a 360 and rebuild it. You can put your 458 on the track, wear out your carbon ceramic brakes and have a heart attack when you see the cost for pads and rotors. It's all relative. The ratio of catastrophic repair to value of the car does factor in, though ... a $25k repair on a $200k 458 is a little bit different from a $25k repair on an $80k 360.

    I will say that after internalizing the potential repair costs on a Ferrari, I had no qualms whatsoever on anything serious going wrong with any other car out of warranty -- Porsche, BMW, Mercedes ... pffffft. So. there's that ;)

    Just do it!
     
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  19. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Canadian tech who works on Ferraris..the DCT sensor that fails inside the gearbox is now available as a kit from various suppliers. The cost of repair is about 14k plus tax. The transmission is not an easy thing to disassemble requiring many special tools you either make or buy.
     
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  20. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    Well.....I test drove the Porsche Cayman today, assuming it would be no where near as good as the California I drove for a week in LA. OMG, the earth moved, that Cayman was awesome, I mean it was awesome. My first porsche driving experience. Geez that thing handled great and had amazing get up and go. Exact same price as the ferrari 360 I am looking at. Took my son to see the 360 he was impressed of course, also saw an Audi R8. Another great machine for sure.

    Alas, even though the porsche is the sensible choice with it's 5 year unlimited KMs warranty, and a great drive. It is still not a ferrari, and porsches will always be available to drive, the dealership in Vaughn Ontario I went to is the number one volume porsche dealer in all of North America. Rows of them.

    So I think it's going to be a bit of a tough choice, heart says ferrari, brain says porsche. I think this is the very definition of a first world problem. :)
     
  21. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
    37
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    Richard Boddington
    A lot of 430s coming on the market now...."cheap." Was always my first choice over the 360, for obvious reasons, no belts, newer tech, etc. Now the price gap is really narrowing. Even the ferrari dealer here in Ontario says he sees few issues with the 430, they are much more bullet proof than a 360 in his view. Well he's the service manager at ferrari! Also says, Californias 2013 and up seemed to have the gear box issue resolved. But for the price of a 2013+ California I can buy a 2005 430 for less, and have a "real" ferrari. Said he was not surprised by my cayman review vs the California, says that porsche will outperform the California, must be tough for a ferrari dealer to say that. And that porsche is still "super cheap" at 100K with taxes.
     
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  22. vjd3

    vjd3 Formula 3
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    I've had an F430, Cali 30 and currently the Cali T. The F430 is a great car, but it really is not the best for a daily driver when you're of a certain age, it's very low, and it attracts a lot of attention. It also is likely to have the F1 transmission -- the 6 speeds are much more expensive (I had one). The F1 is not as robust a transmission as the DCT is by any stretch ... you have to drive them correctly, they can and will go through clutches and they can be a real bear if your mechanic is not good at setting them up and maintaining them. The DCT is just head and shoulders above the F1 in terms of feel and use, it's faster and smoother. You can also have some headaches with the F1 where the car will just not go into gear for various reasons. But if it's taken care of correctly, it will be fine.

    The other weak spot on the F430 is the headers ... the factory headers eventually fail, they came out with a new MKII version (some were replaced under warranty) ... those fail, too. The sign is a white dust in the engine bay. You can smoke test the headers before you buy. In theory, some of that material (its from the pre-cat in the header) could come loose as it deteriorates and be ingested by the engine with catastrophic results. Most people will just put on a set of Capristo headers and Capristo's header mounts, which in theory remove the expansion issue which stresses the header, or other aftermarket headers. The car will be considerably louder and aggressive sounding ... that's either a good thing or a bad thing. That can also cause some headaches with emissions testing.

    The mid engine car is a lot of fun to drive ... I was always a little nervous about something like a fuel line leaking on a hot header and having a little barbecue ; ) but if you maintain the car well and keep an eye on things it's unlikely. The experience is definitely more analog than the California is. But the metal roof on the Cali is nice to have, too, it's a coupe and an open car.

    I've driven the Cayman and have owned numerous 911s ... the base Cayman is not going to outperform the Cali 30 or the T.

    If you're going to drive the car a lot -- I put 5-6k miles per year on mine -- the California is a great choice. I would get a 30 or a T. If you're going to just drive the car for fun on weekends and put 1k miles a year, then the F430 is a great car, as well.
     
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  23. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    Man you guys suck, LOL :)

    This is like Harry Truman's famous line that he wished he could find an economist with one arm because they always say..on the other hand. :)

    1K a year on an F430 weekend car? No way! I'll be driving it a lot in the Summer, a Summer that only lasts 7 weeks in Canada.

    Not ruling out a California, I'll have to spend at least 120K CA$ for a 2013+ based on what I am seeing.

    Thanks for the info vjd3!
     
  24. SLViper1

    SLViper1 Formula Junior
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    I agree with everything vjd3 said 4 years in 2006 430 Spider F1 7K Miles lot of fun, great experience and no issues but.... F1 is system is primitive and odd feeling even when in proper working order. Never inspired confidence.
    Just added a 2015 Cali T and the DCT Makes all the difference Drop top GT you could drive daily if you like.
     
  25. David Charles

    David Charles Rookie

    Jan 28, 2020
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    Richard Boddington
    Well now having driven the cayman and California.....between those two I think would take the cayman and the warranty. Of course I did not drive the California T, then again, it's a lot more money.....blah, blah, blah. :)
     

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