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The $9000 exhaust

Discussion in '308/328' started by Ferraripilot, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. Hans

    Hans F1 Veteran

    Feb 17, 2006
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    For that money, I'll drop a 355 engine in mine and put a Capristo on....

    Serious automotive porn this...

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtd2yxvVR0[/ame]
     
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  3. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Yowser, that sounds sweet!!!
     
  4. Matto

    Matto Formula 3

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    Wow
     
  5. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Kreissieg have an authorised dealer here in France, but although their exhausts have been much discussed on many forums, up till now, I never read anything from an owner actually saying "I have indeed bought one and had it bolted on my car"; nor did I met one...
     
  6. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    I have a friend who, speaking of something else the other day, said what I believe would apply perfectly to this product..."It's too stupid for words."
     
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  8. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    So perhaps this company made up a number of exhausts and bolted them to clients cars or their friends cars and simply made a number of videos showing how nice they sound with the goal being selling a stupidly priced exhaust? You're right though, I haven't seen any Ferrari at a dealer shop or independant shop with one installed. An exhaust which is 3x the cost of a Tubi is a tough sell
     
  9. vaccarella

    vaccarella Formula 3

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    I was watching a show the other day on the McLaren F1 and certainly by that time engine noise, exhaust note were design issues. And we know modern manufacturers put huge efforts into satisfying door clunks and the like.

    I understand the intentions but I don't like it. Theoretically, why not put effort into pleasing the ear as well as the eye? I'm struggling with that.
     
  10. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    The price is about 1/3 of some of the 308 prices I've seen.
     
  11. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212648652112789.58478.211533925557595

    Price is quoted at 7990 € here for the exhaust/silencer for a 328 with catalytic converter; the odd thing is that they only offer this exhaust for a 328 with cats, but not one specific for a standard euro 328, i.e non cat...whereas almost all 328 on the french roads are non cat, which makes me wonder if they really intend to sell some at all? (at least for us 328 owners)
    Let's assume an average value of 44.000 euros for a 328 these days (a bit high) that would convert at about 5,5 the price of the car.
    To give a better comparison, a complete Larini exhaust system: silencer (well, sort of...) plus intermediary pipes plus manifolds is about 4500 euros...
     
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  13. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    I'm simply intrigued by their unique design they have going with one main inlet on the muffler. Specifically, I'm wondering what the baffling inside looks like as it's a completely different concept to any 308/328 muffler design.
     
  14. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    John,

    Let's open a subscription, buy one, and cut it in half?

    Best
     
  15. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    hah. Sure, why not.
     
  16. 308geo

    308geo F1 Rookie

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    I work for a company that designs and makes exhaust systems.

    That item is WAYYYYYYYYY marked up outta line!!!

    Likely cost under $500 to produce...

    .
     
  17. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Can you give us some insight as to how they might have baffled the inside of the muffler. I suspect with the centrally located exhaust intakes that it's using a similar baffling system that a 355 or 348 might use. I have a couple ideas floating around but muffler design is not really my specialty so I'd love to know the opinion from someone 'in the know'.

    thanks
     
  18. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    #40 nerofer, Jul 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  19. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    This will be long...sorry ... but it's a pet peeve of mine.

    Muffler design is not rocket science and, IMO, people like these guys, who try to make it look like it is, are just trying to separate fools from their money.

    You can make a quiet muffler with virtually no adverse affect on power and you can make a loud muffler that has a substantial adverse affect on power. The fact that many people assume "Louder is faster," is one of the human nature things that makes the aftermarket muffler business what it is.

    There have been many objective dyno tests of things like mufflers and cat converters that pretty much blow away all the hype but it doesn't seem to matter. A couple of years ago, John Lingenfleter - noted performance Chevy guy - did tests on one of his 715+ HP chevy motor with/without Cats. The HP difference he came up with was 9HP. He commented at the time that that could be within the error range of the dyno at that power level.

    When I was doing engine rebuilding/dyno work some years back, we found that a famous brand of LOUD "performance" muffler was down 10 HP compared to the STOCK muffler on the same US V8 engine. What really surprises people is that in this particular case, you can look straight through the "performance" muffler - the pipe is the same size all the way through. Sounds impossible that it could make less power than an oem muff but it does. Sure sounds "fast" though.

    The reason is simply that the design of the perforations in the muffler tube that vent to the fiberglass packing, disrupts the exh flow causing excessive turbulence and sending a reversion wave back to the ext port that is out of sync to what the engine wants to see.

    A properly designed muffler that allows the engine to make the maximum power can either be small and loud or large and quiet. But being small or large or quiet or loud in itself doesn't mean anything if the design/flow doesn't compliment the engine's characteristics.

    Do not believe anything any performance muffler maker tells you including any of their own published dyno charts. Here's a short story re that...

    We did dyno tests for a local perf parts distributer to use for local advertising in Memphis, TN. The distributer wanted to be able to say, "This 'XYZ' muffler will add 'X' HP compared to the muffler on your car!" Several tests showed essentially no difference between the perf and the stock muffler. The distributer was quite upset and then figured out that probably a lot of people might be replacing a several year old stock muffler with a performance muffler. So we ended up doing dyno tests of 13, count' em, THIRTEEN older cars with chevy 350 motors. One had a badly restricted oem muffler. The new performance muffler showed a 13 HP gain on THAT car. What do you think the advertisement said? Yep, there was a pic of the car and a dyno chart with advertising copy that said words to the effect that, " 'XYZ' racing service dyno verifies 13 more HP just by installing the 'ABC' muffler!"

    Don't believe ANYTHING you read performnce-wise re this stuff from the people who make them. Believe only what you or someone you trust has seen on a dyno where the only thing that was changed was the muffler AND it is known that you are comparing two new mufflers. If you are just looking for sound, then none of this really matters - just don't think that the louder muffler actually made your car faster. It has about the same chance of making it slower. ;)
     
  20. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Great post Mike, thank you!


    So, is it reasonable to say that the mufflers without the perforated holes the vent to fiberglass are somewhat better, or does it all simply have to do with the design of the muffler itself and the kickback signal it provides to the exhaust port? The idea behind a good muffler is that it aids sort of like a spring in sucking out the exhaust gases also helping the intake in the overlap phase. Is there any 'best' practice to mufflers that are pleasant to see and always yield good power, or is it all hocus pocus? The only reason I ask is because with Ferrari's, I have seen noteable power differences due to mufflers.
     
  21. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    It's all about the "active flow." In other words, a muffler like the straight through muff I referred to may actually have less restriction if you just blow a burst of air through it. But under constant flow it has more restriction than a muffler that appears more restrictive to the eye. You'd think that looking at, for example, that OEM muffler pic, that it would be very restrictive but that is not the case if it's properly designed. You could make a muffler that would have maximum beneficial affect on power that is so quiet you could barely hear it at all. Admittedly, it would be to large to fit in the normal space designed to allow mufflers on most cars. And...sporty-type drivers mostly want their cars to be "aggressive sounding."

    Harley Motorcycle riders are famous for often using straight pipes - pipes that have no muffling at all - just smooth, straight pipes. More power, right? Nope, They almost always lose HP over an oem muffler. OTOH, look at current sport bikes that are making nearly 200 HP from 1100-1200 CCs. They are fairly quiet. Their mufflers are rather large by previous standards and tuned for the engine. Since they are large, they reduce the noise dramatically; since they are tuned FOR the engine, they maximize available power.

    Exhaust manifolding/muffler , like intake manifolding, will provide a boost or cut in performance at any given RPM. It can't do both. IOW, if an exhaust is designed to provide a power boost at 6000 RPM, it will be reducing power at 4000 RPM compared to an exhaust designed to maximize power at 4000 RPM. That's why modern cars have variable intake/exhaust volume and variable cam timing. They can actually maximize power at a very wide RPM. But our old "fixed" intake/exhaust/cam timing engines cannot.

    What was usually done for a "factory" street performance motor was to try to set up the combination to get the smoothest power throughout a reasonable rev range. This means that maybe the cam produced max power at 5k, the exhaust at 6k, the int at 4k, etc. When you put it all together, it averaged out to good power at all RPM but if you tuned cam/exh/int to produce max power at the same point, you had a lot more HP at that rpm but considerably less at other rpm...basically you had just made a racing engine. But an engine like that absolutely sucks on the street.

    Now, on this forum, the specific question becomes, is a stock Ferrari muffler as efficient as it can be compared to a louder Tubi or whatever installed with no other changes. I cannot say because I have no dyno experience with the mufflers in question. But I do have enough experience with other engines/mufflers to make me doubt any of the performance claims for the various Ferrari performance mufflers. Again - it's easy enough to check with a dyno as long as there are no other variables. You can't legitimately compare a 20 year old stock muffler with a new Tubi. The oem might have baffles disintegrating and obstructing flow, etc. The test has to be new against new.

    Again...sorry this is so long but as I said, it's one of my "things."
     
  22. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    A very interesting debate; I have no knowledge in exhaust science whatsoever, but what Mike said about the search of the best compromise has reminded me of the two first years of the Cosworth DFV in Formula one, where they fitted the engine with different exhaust manifold configuration, according to what was needed on different tracks, basically more top end power at Monza, or more torque at Monaco.
    Different types of manifolds helped the scavenging of burned gases from the cylinders differently, giving either more top-end power or more torque. By this I mean the way individual pipes exhausting from each cylinder are regrouped into the exhaust pipe proper.
    So the cars had different manifolds on different tracks, variyng between two types, either a "2 into 2, and then those 2 into 1" config; or directly 4 into 1.
    After the first two or three years they found an acceptable compromise between top end power and torque in a definitive 4 to 1 configuration.
    Matra conducted the same research; the first model of the V12 had six exhaust pipes (one for two cylinders) then only four (three individual cylinders per pipe) all in the quest for an acceptable compromise between power and torque.
     
  23. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    Glad mine came with a Tubi....




    PDG
     
  24. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    On the dragstrp it was common to change ext collector length to alter the RPM where max power occurred to suit the day/track. Having 3 different lengths of collectors available was pretty standard.
     

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