The best driver of all time ... | Page 6 | FerrariChat

The best driver of all time ...

Discussion in 'F1' started by william, Mar 17, 2020.

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  1. Yo, gordondriver..... You make your own argument against yourself by that reasoning.. Where's your proof that Chapman copied Hall? Nonetheless, william never said a word about anyone copying anyone. Mays wing was fixed, Hall's weren't, rear or front (Did you know about the front wings? Tell me how they worked....no cheating, don't Google now....). Chapman's were fixed. Ferrari that year tried a spring loaded rear wing that flattened at higher speeds.....and yes!!! BANNED mid-year because FIA didn't want a movable device. Wings attached to the suspension were RULED OUT (not banned) (too many breakages from the strut movements) for '69 by stating that wings had to be mounted rigidly as sprung weight (as in: to the body or chassis, not moving suspension parts for the uninitiated).

    BTW, you didn't mention the auto-tranny's in the Es, Fs, and Gs, to leave the left foot free for the wing pedal......just another tidbit. ;)
     
  2. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Actually, Opel had put wings on a racing car in 1928. Neither of those developments led to wings on F1 cars.


    Lorenzo wrote "innovation" ... "first wings in the late 1960's". Those wings came from Jim Hall's use of wings on the Chaparrals. F1 innovation from copying Can-Am. This is what is well documented.

    You can't post any proof of Jim Hall copying Michael May, because it doesn't exist.

    You just made it up.
     
  3. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    I did mention semi-automatic transmissions, and william did say that Jim Hall copied Michael May. Go back and read the posts again.
     
  4. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    Go back to the definition of "copy".

    To copy verb: make a similar or identical version of; reproduce.


    I'll leave it at that. Have a good day !
     
  5. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Here's some basics. Enjoy:

     
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  6. I don't remember May's wing (1956) being "manipulated" (further investigation is req'd) and am surprised not mentioned in Michael Fuller's excellent site, MulsannesCorner.com:

    "But this period of race car development was punctuated by one innovator who realized the potential of designing a device that produced negative lift, thereby canceling the positive lift forces that were common. In 1956, Michael May, an engineer, thought that by constructing an airfoil, flipping it over so that it produced a negative force towards the ground, and mounting it onto his Porsche Type 550, he could utilize this negative force, or downforce, to improve the traction, grip, and handling of his race car . But Michael May's innovation was perhaps too successful. At the first race that he introduced his device, the race organizers, under pressure from the Porsche factory team, refused him the opportunity to race sighting that the wing, “restricted the view of the drivers behind him”. Subsequent attempts to run the wing mounted Porsche were denied as well. With that, wing development and conscious downforce generation fell by the side and for the rest of the 1950s the concentration was still on low drag and slick looking bodies."

    The 2F. Aaaaahhh, we don't get to see elevation change/meter like this any more.
    Nooooo........gotta be nearly billiard smooth nowadays........don't wanna frighten the children now, do we.....? :oops:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. fer312t

    fer312t Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2010
    777
    Actually, he did say exactly that...explicitly. :)

    Was Jim Hall aware about Michael's May 'experiment.' I would think quite likely he was not.
    Point being, May's Porsche... Smokey Yunick's Indycar (1962)...these are interesting curios, and were really on the cusp of major breakthrough much earlier...but they were not fully fleshed out and they didn't catch on. The Chaparrals though...they absolutely registered. Everyone in the F1 paddock was keenly aware of the 2E/Fs on track performance.

    Brabham and Ferrari were the first of the F1 cars to run wings, not Lotus...Chapman was unusually a bit behind the curve on this one, although once onboard he was obviously pushing the limits. Actually Ferrari's first wing at Spa 1968 was a rather advanced, neat little hydraulically actuated unit. And the early Lotus wings were not all fixed...by late 1968 the cars had a pedal operated feathering system using bungee cords (!)
     
  8. (A) Yeah, my error. Upon re-reading, caught it but too late for editing. :oops:

    (B) I'd like to ask Jim that....he was pretty "Sharp".... (And happy maybe...not Hap' tho'... :p )

    (C) Yup. Specifics in me memory banks get a tad jumbled 50+ years later I'm afraid. No excuse, just reason.... :)

    :)
     
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  9. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    The first winged car in F1 was Chapman's Lotus 49 @ Monaco in 1968. Hill took poll, and won the race.



    Two weeks later, Forghieri's Ferrari sported a much more advanced wing. Amon's winged Ferrari was 5 sec/lap faster than Ickx' wingless sister car. Amon took poll, and won the race.



    By the next race most of the other teams were trying out different types of wings. Later that year, Chapman invented a tall rear wing that ran in undisturbed air. These wings/supports started breaking causing terrible accidents, and were quickly banned.

    If Hall's Chaparrals were at the back of the field, no one would likely have noticed the wings. But this small Texas based constructor was beating the likes of Ferrari /Ford/Porsche etc. in international sports car competition.
     
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  10. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Edit: - Stewart won the Belgian race, starting from 5th.
     
  11. #136 lorenzobandini, May 2, 2020
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
    gordondriver -
    Two wins (Sebring, '65; Brands Hatch, '67) in three years means "this small Texas based constructor was beating the likes of Ferrari /Ford/Porsche etc. in international sports car competition" ......???
    I guess......when the same rationale makes Gilles Villeneuve "the best driver of all time"....... :p

    I loved Hall's efforts but 'not so successful in WSC....they kept breaking. Even here at home in the Can Am.....not so great (few wins, no championships).
    At least the 2K got Johnny the '80 500 and championship. ;)

    jim :)
     
  12. Ooooopppssss... For shame, for shame. :oops:

    However shall I repent...? Make that a win each year in WSC. I forgot entirely about The Ring in '66. :rolleyes:

    Thanks for giving me cause to re-visit the past......'neat seeing some o' ye ol' names.....mammaries....errrr....I mean...memories.... :D
     
  13. Dino2010

    Dino2010 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Nov 20, 2006
    4,852
    Belgium
    Schumacher. E basta.
     
  14. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,300
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Yep...despite engines with far more torque (and immediate at that), wider tyres, wider cars (more aero), wings mounted lower (more aero), 16 years of aerodynamic development...newer tarmac on tracks giving more grip...

    V10s where utterly glorious, and we took them for granted.
     
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  15. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Hakkinen is a friend of mine and my favorite driver. But if we are talking about all time greats, there is only one: Michael.
     
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  16. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 World Champ

    U mean Ayrton


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. zygomatic

    zygomatic F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 19, 2008
    4,848
    Washington, DC
    Full Name:
    Chris
    I'll do your friend a solid and say that we should consider Mika on pure talent alone, as I believe him a more talented driver than Michael. (With the caveat that talent alone doesn't necessarily make one the best).
     
  18. Dane

    Dane Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2002
    1,512
    As was stated, there are many opinions and I respect each I have seen on this thread; how does one contest those like Senna, Fangio, Ascari, Stewart, Clark, Lauda and may I even add Gilles? They are all brilliant in their own right.

    To me, the greatest is Michael and not because he was only a great driver, but because he was a true leader which is essential to win in Formula 1. He took Ferrari from the abyss behind the likes of Benetton, Williams and, later McLaren to five consecutive driver championships and six consecutive constructor's titles. Granted, he had a supporting cast consisting of Ross, Jean and Rory, but he was the leader.

    I am 48-years old so I have never witnessed the early drivers. Given such, I may say that my opinion may be biased because I watched Ayrton and then Michael. Each could push so hard. Obvious tragedy with Ayrton as we will never know what he could have achieved.

    Some of my bias towards Michael comes from seeing him push and push and push during quali' and races. He was asked to cut time when it seemed impossible yet he did it lap after lap. He became bigger than Ferrari for a time.

    I am sure everyone has additions or deletions from my preferences and/or could poke holes in my thoughts, but such as it is with this type of thread.

    Cheers.
     
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  19. Flavio_C

    Flavio_C Formula 3
    BANNED

    Sep 7, 2012
    2,445
    Insubria
    To me the best drivers in history are:

    1 - Schumacher - 7-time world champion tells it all.
    2 - Senna - the most talented driver of them all.
    3 - Hamilton - has almost the same talent as Senna and if he surpasses Schumy's numbers, will be the GOAT.
    4 - Nelson Piquet - the most technical driver of them all.
    5 - Fangio - his win rate and pole position rate are the highest if I'm not mistaken.
    6 - Alain Prost - the professor.
     

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