Has anyone driven a Mazdaspeed Protege? It really was very impressive. I have been very fortunate to drive a 996TT for 2 days (Thank you God!) and it is the best car I have ever driven, hands down. But I am curious why the S2000 wasn't on there. It is an outstanding car, especially for price. I have also driven the M3 and Boxster. This is the order I would rank it for OVER ALL driver ratings during this year of testing. (Going off what I have read and heard on the other cars.) 1. Ferrari 360 Modena 2. Lotus Elise 3. Porsche 911 Turbo 4. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VII 5. Honda S2000 6. BMW M3 coupe 7. Porsche Boxster S 8. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 9. Mazda MP3
Not really true. Its evidence that it can be MODIFIED to handle well AND that it got lucky and was classed well. For example, FS is always dominated by the Camaros and Firebirds... not because they handle well, but because the FS class is designed to ensure that popular car is not outclassed by anything. DS used to be dominated by Neons because Dodge was providing contingency money... so they ensured that the Neon was classed well... the money went away, and almost instantly the car stopped being competitive. For SCCA Solo2, the base car doesn't need to handle well... it mainly just needs to be lightweight and stiff ... and have adequate power-to-weight for the class its in. The rules don't let you remove weight or stiffen the chassis... nor add much power. But you can replace springs and shocks and add an anti-sway bar to one end... so you can largely fix handling problems. Thus, right now the dominant cars in "stock" classes are: SS- C5 Corvette Z06 AS- C4 Corvette BS- Honda S2000 CS- 2nd Gen Mazda Miata vs. Toyota MR-Spyder DS- BMW 330Ci vs. Acura Integra Type-R ES- 2nd Gen Toyota MR-2 FS- Chevrolet/Pontiac Camaro/Firebird GS- Current Toyota Celica GT seems best, others are right there though. HS- Mini Cooper
I'm not convinced yet that the US Elise 111R is as fast as the European 111S. It's 200 LB heavier and I bet the suspension is softer. I have the base model and it is a whopping 400LB lighter than the US version. Rijk
RijK The US 111R is quicker than the Euro 111S but there is also now a 111R for Europe which has just come out within the last few weeks. The 111S has a Rover VVC Engine and puts out just under 160 bhp. Both the US (Federalised) 111r and the new Euro 111R both use the Toyota engine with 190 BHP. I think the US car is still a little heavier as it has airbagsvand some other stuff US laws and customers demand.
I hear what you say Brian, but in the Stock SCCA Solo2 classes you really can't change very much, so a car has to be a good handling right out of the box. Once you start to make a bunch of changes, you leave the Stock classes. With the S2000 most drivers are obviously running Hoosier tires for more grip, and the addition of a stiffer front anti-sway bar is NOT to fix a balance problem with the stock car, but to fix a balance problem created by using Hoosiers which simply do NOT come in the proper widths. Going with Hoosiers (the absolute stickiest tires available) you have NO choice but to go wider in the front, thus the front grip becomes too strong relative to the rear grip and the car oversteers more than I like. Accordingly, most drivers stiffen the front anti-sway bar. This is NOT because of a handling problem in the box stock car, but one created due to limited R-Compound tire availability for the car. I run Hoosiers and an adjustable front anti-sway bar. As far as the springs go, no one I know has changed them (and the rules allow very little change in springs). On the shocks, yes they do often get changed. However, some drivers go stiffer and some drivers go softer, thus I feel this is more a driver preference issue than any deficiency. Plus a number of top cars are using the stock shocks. I run stock springs and shocks. Engine-wise you really can't do anything other than change the air filter element and the back part of the exhaust system and remain Stock. Having said this, I don't think there's a lot that Honda left on the table with respect to untapped performance. I run a box stock engine. You have a point about classification, but I would like to think that after years of classifying so many cars the SCCA does a very fair and equitable job in this regard. Another factor you didn't mention is that the S2000 has attracted a very large and somewhat disproportionate share of good drivers, making B Stock a huge class at the Nationals. This also ensures the S2000 success at the Nationals since we all know that that a good driver is the most important part of the equipment. There is only one reason for this attraction of so many good drivers though, and that is that you don't have to do very much to the S2000 to make it a top car -- and it's a hoot to be driving a top car. In the end, anyone that's serious about SCCA Solo2 will only tell you good things about the S2000. Kind Regards, Chris
Davy and Rijk, The car in the Road and Track review was not a 111s, it was a base European Elise. Here is the link: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=221&page_number=3 The article says that car weighs 1900lbs which is incorrect. I assume the writer heard that the upcoming US car would weigh around 1900 and put that in the article. The base Elise weighs 710kgs (dry) or about 1,570lbs. Here is a link to the Factory specs: http://www.lotuscars.co.uk/template.cfm?name=lotuscarsmodels_elise2000techinfo The car that came in 2nd in that test, based a lot on "subjective" data, weighed about 400lbs LESS than the new US car. In addition, the 111r is 200-300lbs heavier than a 111s so I'd like to see some lap times before I concluded that the 111r is faster. I suspect it is with the LSS but with the stock suspension it would be close; there's no substitute for weight I own or have owned all of the top three cars in this test and have spend some time driving the new 111r (A Federal Elise Test Mule). While it's a nice car, it is very sluggish compared to the older cars. I have not driven the new Elise with the sport suspension, it is supposed to be very good... Roy
Allan: Once again, you talk as if you actually know something about track driving, which, by your own previous admissions, you don't. Road and Track did a lengthy comparison article in 2001. It ranked several cars on a road course with a professional driver driving each one. Lap times determined the rankings. Steve Millen was the driver 360#1 Zo6#2 550!!#3 996Turbo#4. Track times in the the hands of a pro....of course, I suppose you know better, right?? LOL
False. With shocks being essentially free, plus the ability to modify a bar at one end, you can dramatically improve the handling of cars in stock. The national level competitors will spend several thousand dollars on custom shocks for their cars. I am not disputing that the S2000 handles well... my brother-in-law has one and I periodically show him what it can really do. Its a fun car, and good-looking. My point is that it winning an SCCA "stock" class is NOT proof of great handling. It is indicative only that it was classed well. And that's not about SCCA being "unfair"... if they are going to make 8 classes, then they have to draw 7 lines somewhere... and some great cars are going to be on the wrong side of those lines. Cars simply aren't in 8 equal-performance groups. Unless you want to argue that a Camaro and a Neon are both great handling cars.
Ive actually done quite a bit of track time in a Porsche. As for lap times by profesionals, one call does it all: Nurburgring 996TT 7.56 360 M 8.09 Also dusted it at Hockenheim. This is not a backyard cone set-up track set up by Road and Track. So yes, LOL at you.
Where will we get a 996TT from? Im looking to buy one, so if i find one on the mainland, maybe i could dust you while im out there.
Good points. In the hands of a great driver and short straights, nothing can touch the Lotus. It is the best handling car but lacks straight line punch so the particular track you're at is a huge factor. I'm not surprised the 360 was first in this test as it has the best all around package. Handles great, decent power. I'm surprised at the Z06; the Vettes must have improved in handling a lot the last few years. Lambos only go in one direction: straight, as this test demonstrates. Sorry Allan but Lambos can only win on the Bonneville Salt Flats between the traps. But they still look really cool! Ken Ken
LOL, great line. Sidenote: The Gallardo is stomping both the 911TT and the 360 on every closed course it's been tested on, including the Nurburgring. Often times by a wide margin (7:52 at the Ring vs. 8:09 for a base 360). So the days of Lambo bashers saying that they're not competitive on a road course are pretty much over. Sidenote #2: Already guys with US Lotus Elise cars on order are exploring using an existing TRD supercharger on the car's base 190HP Toyota engine. Figure $10k to do it right, plus $45k for the car, and for $55k you've got an Elise with 265+HP, that weighs 2,000 pounds. World beater.
Actually power goes a long way for setting track times. IF the track has any high speed or uphill sections you can forget about the Elise setting any killer lap times regardless of how fast it goes through the corner. That car is slow as hell after 100 simply because it doesn't have much power to conquer the wind resistance. I can't speak for the 360 as I havn't driven one but from what I witnesses during the SCC ultimate street car challenge in 2001/2002 Mr. Millen was really really fast in that car on a shortend streets of willow course. I would guess that if it is a tighter course fairly low speed where power was not as much of an issue the 360 probably has the best sorted out suspension of the bunch. The lack of torque however will be a severe limitation in something ultra tight such at Autocross. As far as the 911 turbo goes the awd goes a long way for fast corner exit as it pulls the car through the exit. From my seat time in a 911T the understeer is tremendous and there isn't much instant torque to compensate for a poorly taken turn where you scrub too much speed. The car has great top end which really shines on higher speed tracks such as Nurburgring which is why it probably edges out the 360 even if the 360 is the better handling and suspension car. As far as the Z06 goes I can speak about this car as I own one . BUt the 2004 model in the hands of John HeinRocket ran 7:56 at Nurburg on the regular 220 tread eagle supercar tires which would place it on par with the 911TT if Alan's time is accurate and faster then the 360. Tho not sure if that time is accurate as I know for a fact Walter Rohrl, two time world rally champion, turned a laptime of 7:56 at the Nurburgring in a GT3 and I always figured the GT3 was faster then the 911T as it has way more aggresive tires ontop of everything else. The raw track performance of the z06 thanks to tons of grip and lots of torque is great for both high speed and low speed stuff. This of course is all under the hands of a professional which 99% of us arn't. In the real world I am considerably faster driving the Z06 then any of the cars listed simply because the active handling allows you to more comfortably explore the limits in the street and the massive torque makes up for slow corner entry (driver error) as well as allows for instant explosion on corner exit. On uphill canyon roads the power really shines above the rest where you need instant torque in the mid range to rip out of uphill corners . The 996TT I drove on similar uphill roads would get noticible intercooler heat soak (I'm sure the crap CA gas makes this problem even more pronounced as the car starts to pull timing once heat soaked) and the power would noticibly go down after a few miles of hill climbing. The awd setup would understeer quite a bit which made it easy to fall out of the power band unless you drove the car brave with a lot of throttle input through the corner in which the front wheels would kick in and grip and pull the car through making for very fast corner exit as well but with a lot more fear . I think overall you can't say "This car is the ultimate handler" because I'd say that the cars have different abilities in different conditions and will set different track times depending on the track not to mention ability of the driver. Some cars will be better performers in the list if an amateur such as yourself is driving. All are great handlers and it will really come down to the handling feel and fun factor of the car to determine which is best for you. I'm sure in this department the 360 is tops.
Now HE'S going to come back and say "that's because the car mags are biased. They always test a GT3 when they should be testing the Turbo with the 360" This, in spite of the fact that every reviewer says the GT3 is the best 911 ever, and certainly the best one currently made. Ferraris handle great. Period. Now they need to work on the speed.
