Roy has invited me to look at it, under it, and climb on to it. If it is there, I have every intention of taking him up on his offer. Why not?
There was no bidding of any kind. Sorry, no sour grapes either. My interest in this vehicle is simply because I was contacted out of the blue, and the events that were unfolded were strange to me. Additionally, I do not think this vehicle is what it was originally represented to be by the person who contacted me so I am curious. As a person interested in Lamborghini's history, I have followed and been interested in the history of certain significant Lamborghinis for decades. I followed one particular car I can think of for ten (10) years. It might seem odd to you, but not to me.
Very interesting. Unlike some others, I do think historical photos lend GREAT detail and an enormous amount of information can be extrapolated from them. I have just noticed that there is a website, SMC - Car Blueprints Forum, that uses images and can extrapolate true dimensions (or very close to them) based on scale etc. SMC | Car Blueprints Forum FAQ Apparently there is 2D & 3D Cad/Cam software that aids this. I'm not sure what the basis is of these images that have already been created below is, but, my point is photos can be a great starting point and can reveal many truths (or otherwise). The minute I received the images of the vehicle painted brown my trained eye told me something wasn't right... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
+ 1 Then again, observers may be participating in intoxicating libations, as they have every right to do. Perhaps this image below is a better image to see how centered the original vehicle's rear wheel was. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Yes to stampings, no to any ID plate...none were affixed to the vehicle according to the orginal owner/builder...only the numeric stamping(s) Yes, when the time comes, which is set for August.....
Thanks for taking the time to do thisw work...as I said earlier, I am not sure, but side with the angles and the photos, distance and the way the pieces were put back together...the only real way to know, is as I stated have it measured with documents from the original builder..which I have already sent an e-mail to my builder to research with the orginal builder in his next visit to the shop... I still wonder, if it is shorter..how the drive train fits now..etc etc..I am not a mechanic..but seems to me if wheel base is shorter, all else would have to be as well..I amy be wrong in this thought??
The "asking" price at first was $100K... The orginal documents are now as they have always been with the orginal builder of the vehicle here in San Jose...I have obtained them from him..
I am sure Joe will conduct himself quite fine and professionly as will I...I have serious questions as to we will sit down together and share a cup of english tea and discuss the fall growth of roses or the splendid temprature of my year round pool at home.
correct, I, as told and evidence produced..there were at least 3 other Cheetahs produced by Teledyne, carried the same name, however were of differnt cosmetic finishes, as in ambulance, troop carrier and fast response missile launcher...
You are more then welcome to....after all as the biggest poo poo of this it can only come out posative for me.. 1) it is correct and you agree with me...all good and we move on 2) you find it in-correct, dis-agree with the documentation and we are same place we started just have to wait and see
by the way..what a great Super Bowl game I thought.. it does appear...unless someone here dis-agrees...? That we can at least start to establish a baseline/timeline we all agree on..I see it as this.. 1) The Geneva show vehicle WAS in fact returned to the USA and the possesion of MTI via air cargo and returned to San Jose, Ca AFTER the Geneva show. 2) A period after this, it and all its rights were sold to Teledyne in Michigan 3) The vehicle was shipped and given control of it over to Teledyne in Michigan.. I think this much is more then acurate and correct...what happened after that point, I am the first one to say not all will agree..we all have difernt standars and burden of proff to verify something to ourselfs...and I can respect that. As I have stated prior....to me, this thread was started becuase I found it cool that I have located what I believe to be the Geneva vehicle..I think it has merit to Lamborghini history...and I have that privledge to have faith in those assertions as well as others have faith to not accept it. I always look at worst case scenerio in my life...that way I am always happy with the outcome..so shall time and presentation of this and others black and white evidence show this not to be what I believe it is...well...for me no harm no foul.. It is still a Cheetah...regardless if it turns out to be a re-creation...or a restoration..it is still a neat thing to have...at least for me it is...and thats what really matters.
Mick it is claimed there are 3 - 5 others floating around, this told to Roy by the builder and Roy said so here. I have knowledge I am yet to corroborate of 1 other, so I was surprised to hear 3 - 5, but, that's what they say.
Here is what I really think: The sellers of this vehicle, to me, to you, or to whomever, knew/know more than they are telling. Or perhaps their memories are conveniently foggy as to what Cheetah went where. So my issue is not with you. Its with the vehicle. It does not look like the Geneva Cheetah. The sellers behaved really strangely when I started asking questions in a searching manner. I know for a fact that they have lied to you - about things like numbers & method of payment which never happened (as you reported they claimed). So, I definitely don't trust anything they have to say. Questions: - Do you have a document that proves that "CHE77-1001" was in fact the vehicle on the Geneva stand? - Have you had metallurgy testing done to determine when the stampings on your vehicle occurred? (anyone can stamp anything anywhere as we all know) I see the outcome a little differently. Number (2) would mean you consider taking up recourse with the sellers. IMO.
3 - 5 WERE floating around yes. But the question was how many STILL are floating around. And at this point there is just one confirmed - this one. -mick
My questions are if there are more of the prototype series out there, where are they and why have they not surfaced? If there are more the odds of finding the one that was on the stand at the show get better and better. BUT the BIG question is WHAT DOES IT MATTER? Only thing that would make the truck worthless is if it was not from the limited series of prototypes badged Lamborghini. If its one that was badged Lamborghini the "value" would remain constant to the number still in existence regardless of show pedigree. 100K for the "Show Unit was cool. I would pay 75K for one of the others
This is correct...and here I share e-mail communication to support my claims from the orginal builder..as I have stated, to my knowledge there were 3 others known to have been duplicated from the orginal Cheetah.... "Hi Rod I got your message, I will let you know if I end up needing the one bezel thanks. Quick question: How many Cheetahs did MTI produce ? One ? One!Where the other cheetahs that where proto types done from scratch by Pioneer or someone else? Three I believe by Pioneer Engineering and Manufacturing Co. copied from CHE 77- 1001, plus a few ill advised changes. Meaning after you did CHE 77-1001 did you start other cheetahs with the same design OR where other cheetahs produced after you- with new jigs and fixtures for frame and body panels- Or where the jigs and fixtures sold with the cheetah(s)? No jigs and fixtures to my knowledge by anyone. There was a rumor that Lamborghini may have built one or a few Cheetah prototypes, but we were never able to verify that, although the venture capitalist in Switzerland later showed me a Cheetah profile drawing made while CHE 77-1001 was on loan to Lamborghini after the Genève exhibit. They were so flaky I wouldnt doubt that, except why did Leimer fight so hard to keep CHE 77-1001 for an additional three months beyond the several months agreed to in our bailment agreement. Maybe to finish the drawings not allowed by our contract, or to disadvantage MTI and Teledyne Continental Motors? We will likely never know. Rod"
Yes to question #1 with out question at all 100%, but HOW much of this vehicle is of the orginal..IMO I have stated approx 85%...there are items on it that were not there when it was on the stand.. ....no to #2...but I will have my builder follow up in this and check for this service by a provider...thanks for the tip...good idea to do so...
Good point..and you would think if there is another one..it would by now have been presented..?? Now, in all fairness..and I present this question...I think there may be a possability that the vehicle I have is a possible vehicle of the orginal and the other known 3 produced put together after the items were purchased at the auction..there is no question it was sold in pieces...we just dont know it it included multiple pieces or not..? I have no second thoughts that the bulk of this vehicel is from the orginial vehicle, ie engine, tranny, tires, doors, front hood, dash, etc etc..not the wheels, not the engine and or front hood latching parts.. If this turns out to be the case..to me it is still of historic value...and not just another vehicle..but what value...that is for everyone to make their own decision...after all..all of the one or parts of the three with the base of the orginal...it is still the begining and the end of the Cheetah...no question about that..
This makes sense to me...regardless if it is 100% all of the orginal...which I dont think it is as we have seen some differences...but take worst case and its a compulation of all three put together...remember it can ONLY be orginal ONCE..and that has come and gone..that is why I refer to this as a restoration...it is not a "re-creation" which to me is a copy, clone, re=produced new stuff to look like the orginal...
I guess I look at this restoration as I have looked at other projects...I think the proper wording is "Donor car"...there are multiple "restorations" that have been completed to provide for a restored one off example with the use of multiple period correct examples of the same that have long been lost to bring back to life a restoration of a one prime example.. I.E. The tucker vehicles, early corvetts, Porsches, Countach and Miura's as well as a wide aray of Ferrari's as well... and since it was asked, as with the Blue DD, I have no reason to hide the costs of this vehicle... Purchase and delivery to my restoration location..just at $70K...restoration should be give or take a little $100K...so lets round out total investment of $200K at completion..worth it..how can you place a value on a project like this, there are no others that have traded to compare..a regular LM 002 trades well into the $150K range today..and is sure to continue upwards...so to me...yes the value is there.. it is a one of one know to exsist...period!!
