I'm really pleased to see that sanity and goodwill has prevailed overnight! Long may it continue. I do appreciate that my process is flawed and I understand that there are doubters but Joe posted a new picture of the Cheetah in which the central roll bar is side on to the camera so here is another (orange) comparison..... The red and blue lines are unchanged but I have added three green lines. Rather than assume the length of the wheelbase itself I have lined up the base of the central and front roll bars. This suggests an apparent shortening of the wheelbase. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Based on the location of the center of the rear wheel hub as show by these photo's I agree with other posters here that this is not the vehicle that was on the Lambo stand on the day. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Just to clarify my position. I did NOT say "this is not the car on the stand", just that it appears to have a shorter wheelbase. Perhaps the engine and transmission were subsequently mounted further forward. Whatever occurred I am not qualified to comment.
$100k for a reported show car of this noteriety is pretty cheap. Either the seller did not know what he was doing, or knew exactly what he was doing. Further, restoring a car wipes away any traces of both mischief and/or authenticity alike, so we can never be certain without more historic information, IMHO. In any case it's a very cool car and might easily fetch a fair asking price on looks alone.
Based on photo's and what other posters have said I don't think it is. Wheel bases have been changed. I own a car where it was changed 12mm but that change was very clearly documented in period build sheets and in the metal. http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf
No doubt about that. Thinking back to November 2011, as soon as I received the images, alarm bells went off in my head. - The wheelbase was red flag number one. - The flaky behavior of the seller regarding the non-existent records to me was red flag number two. - Suddenly seeing the car sold elsewhere with an all-is-explained story was red flag number three. One can see how my curiosity was seriously piqued, so, yes, I have been interested and will continue to be interested in the outcome.
Dumb question, Live axle or independent suspension. Any welding of new brackets to mount a shorter suspension would clearly have left marks to the original location..
Modifying a wheel base always leaves evidence in the metal. The wheelbase of this car was shortened 12mm when it was converted by Ferrari from a P 3 to a P 3/4. That change is in the metal and it's in the build sheets. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Jim, I guess its my disposition and my simple principle of doing business: I ask lots of questions first, and pay later when I'm satisfied. I guess that's why people hire me and trust me. I'm glad my system hasn't failed me. I now (after hearing that the sellers have lied to Roy about their interaction with me) have absolutely no doubt that the sellers thought: "This Joe guy will be a sonofab!tch up our asse$, he asks too many questions and if anything goes wrong he will come after us". Darned right. They simply passed on me because they knew more that they were willing to disclose. After purposefully seeking me out, why else did our interaction suddenly end with complete & utter radio silence? As for paperwork, docs, and provenance letters, I learned long a go that they must match the physical car, and the physical car must leave no doubt. Let me put this in terms you understand since you deal with horses other than the Prancing kind: once upon a time, a man submitted unimpeachable documentation to the Jockey Club to enter his horse in the Derby. The horse, a rank outsider bet up the yin-yang, won. All's well, right? But a sharp-eyed skeptic (like me) noticed something funny about this horse, it was slightly taller than he remembered the horse of that name was. It was thoroughly investigated, and, guess what? Despite all that paperwork, turns out the Derby winner was a "Ringer". Not the real horse, an imposter! It happens.... Best,
It happens all the time and that's why IMO a wheel base change would show up in the metal (see my photo post 434) as well as period documentation from the factory that built the car. " -330 P3/P4 - SCHEDA TECNICA" (TECHNICAL DATA SHEET) 330 P3/P4 (1967) Telaio N 0846 Trasformazione di un modello P3 secondo le caratteristiche del modello P4. TELAIO Telaio Tipo 593/603. Trasformazione della parte posteriore tubolare del telaio per i nuovi putoni del motore Tipo 237." "330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis n. 0846" In this case I could believe that the "factory/builder" would be lax in period documention but the metal would still show it and your photo and the photo on the Lambo stand in the day clearly show what they clearly show.
Its why I asked.. no one on a prototype is gong to grind all weld marks away re-spray and cover up the original mount locations they would make it so you could revert to the other mounting location if needed.
Exacto! In the case of the car I own this is exactly what was done to this Prototype chassis. The old mounting points still remain and the engine and gearbox it once had can be bolted right back in should one wish to. I firmly believe that if the car today contains the original chassis of the car that was on the Lambo stand in the day there will be evidence of the wheelbase change in the metal.
To make things even more confusing, in the book of rob Box one can see the original cheetah in front of the factory (http://www.lambocars.com/images/off_road/1/cheetah0.html) and at geneva (http://www.lambocars.com/images/off_road/1/cheetah5.html) and furthermore a strange piece which is something between the cheetah and the LM001 I guess from 1981. Obviously the first Prototype for the LM001 from Lamborghini and looks like a copy of the cheetah: http://staticclub.caradisiac.com/1/modelisme-modele-reduit/concept-lamborghini/photo/299705299/1218210b17/concept-lamborghini-lm001-1st-proto-img.jpg In the book also a known picture where the real cheetah is being sent back to US with a lufthansa jet, wearing CH at the back and a small black lamborghini script and having even doors. The reason can be seen on this picture, Leimer took the cheetah to switzerland and drove around, you can see the Neuenburg plates (NE-9248) on the car (Leimer lived at lac neuchatel/Neuenburg): http://www.lambocars.com/images/off_road/cheetah6.jpg
In all of the period photo's the rear wheel is very clearly centered in the rear wheel well. In the later photo it is not as shown by Joe and others.
All good comments and questions..thanks to all.. We will be doing a lot of more research and checking items as advised..
Roy, I have no dog in this fight. I am only stating my opinion based on the information provided. I have been an automotive engineer for many years. I have built prototype vehicles for Ford and Honda. I have built racecars. So I have a very keen eye to detail. Here is the conclusion that I have come to at this time. Do I think that Roy believes 100% that he has the Geneva vehicle? Yes. Do I believe it is the Geneva Vehicle? No. From the start, I could see that this was a totally different vehicle than the Geneva unit. I felt that it must have been built by a different company from the same plans as the Geneva vehicle. The LamboCars article made perfect sense to me based on all of the info. I clearly feel that this is one of the later vehicles built in hopes to get the Lambo contract. I had a bad feeling about the paper trail on this from the start. But after hearing Joe's experience with the seller, I am now convinced that they are trying to create a history connecting this vehicle with the Geneva vehicle to get the sale. My concern at this point is for Roy. I truly think he believes that this is the Geneva vehicle and will at some point sell it to a Lambo collector. Then at that point, if the original vehicle comes to light, Roy will not only be in a bad position with the person who bought it from him. But also the fact that he will have paid a lot of money for it and placed even more money in it in the restoration. So to Roy, I would say that you really need to back up for a minute and take a deep breath and really dig hard into the paper trail and background of this vehicle. There have been many great points brought up here that have no clear answers yet. Don't let your excitement cloud your judgement going forward. Strong due diligence here will go a long way to preventing big trouble for you in the future. Good luck to you on this whole project. Be careful.
I disagree. When I asked how much, the 40-50k number was in my head. And dropped my jaw when Roy state $100 asking. I am confident Roy got it at a good number.
I may not have read closely but it sounds like the seller provided Roy with hardly anything. And Roy had done all the work as far a paper trail is concern.....contacting many people. Was this the case?
Thanks for the words..I can assure you, if and when the time came to sell it...I would at no cost whatsoever, risk my reputation to sell or represent something that is not what it is represented to be.. AND until there is 110% no question to what it is..it is not for sale or being offered for sale..
First details and info back from my builder this AM ... Wheel base is 118 on your Cheetah (same as diagram below from tech specs) there is nothing wrong with wheel base.. Like I mentioned the wheel offset along with the sheet metal misaligned has made this cheetah look off. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
GREAT post, fair & dispassionate. Especially this: "Don't let your excitement cloud your judgement". Words I try to live by.
Roy has already answered. In my case, I got a lifetime's supply of nothing. The funny thing is when the Michigan gentleman first called me, he went on & on waxing lyrical about how he was glad to have made contact with me, and how our partnership with this vehicle would yield a world record sale of a Lamborghini etc etc. As soon as I began asking questions in a searching manner..... crickets. The rest, as they say is history.
