The F1 6-Speed Debate..one more time

Really?
I actually know people who can not immediately determine left and right. But since you are the authority to decides what is possible and what is impossible in this world. You win.

You have very strange logic.
How is that putting words in my own mouth?
You claim the people confuse about SMG paddels, I said I am not. That's putting words in my mouth? Ok.

And what do those same people say about the F1 in your F355? Absolutely no flaw?

How about go post your same opinion on M3 board at roadfly.org, let's see what ppl say.

You give me what someone told you.
If that's considered proof, ok you win.

No one cares? LoL.
If you did not care, why would you reply to me? What are we posting back and forth??
Very odd.

Ok, I agree.
Truth does not equal printed words.
Now, does truth equal what a race team manager told you??

First of all, 80 ms is .08 second, not .8 second.
S3 mode is about 150 ms, which is the same as F1 in Modena. So if you always start the car in S5(that's what most of owners do), that's faster than 150 ms.

but that's exactly what is ridiculous. I am not entitled to my opinion??? I have NO rights to think SMG II is superior to F355 F1??

Another ridiculous assumption. How do you know how I drive??

I was not aware that I claimed I am afraid of something. Yuo seem to read things that do not exsit.

So explain to me, what you meant when you said:
why drive a sports car if you do not drive fast.
Tell me your definition of "fast drivnig on street".
It's funny how you are the authority again to decide who shall and who shall not drive a sports car.

 

Rick -
Sounds like you have some 'real world' experience with F1 cars.

The posts about "tracking" and "driving aggressively" are fine.....but what about the details of "daily"? Like; parallel parking; short, steep driveways; in-city stop & go; commute traffic stop & go?

I hear in the background some "issues" about clutch slippage, "jerking and clunking".... I believe on later cars (2002-3?) these issues have been programmed out? what about early ('99-00?) F1's. Fair number of complaints re these cars...

Can a '99-'00 have the 2004 shift program retrofitted?

ANY 360 is going to be fast enough to make me happy, F1 or 6-speed, but those "daily" issues could make my choice harder.

 

Are you talking about people who drive the F1 system regularly, or just the corner boys that you hang out with? Put your "experience" in some sort of context that others here can relate to. Not being able to determine left or right is not the norm for an enthusiast driver, but it may be the norm in your world.

Strange logic? Since I clearly don't understand the reasons why BMW did what they did to accomplish something that doesn't work as intuitively to many users as the Ferrari F1 system, and you do, you win. Big deal. You are probably well versed in the iDrive too, which is yet another example of the incrediblely bad human interface design team working at BMW.

Not for me. It does what I expect it to do. It doesn't need a stick on the center console as a crutch for upshifting or downshifting although I do reach for the reverse T when backing up... from a standstill.

Why should I? The discussion at hand is here.

 

Alright you two.......

Go to neutral corners and come out drivin.

How about you both agree to disagree?

 

James-

The key to driving the F1 trans well is understanding what your inputs are telling the shift computer.

If you are steady with the throttle, the clutch engagement will be smooth. If you stab at the throttle, it will be jerky. Parallel parking is not an issue- you will wait longer for a regular auto tranny to engage than the F1 reverse gear.

On short steep driveways you need to drive it like a regular stick- make sure the clutch is fully engaged when driving slowly up. The clutch will not engage completely (ride) if you do are giving it minimal throttle input when starting from a stop. The key is to get the car rolling slightly on momentum to allow the computer to engage the clutch completely- just like a regular clutch. Think of the throttle pedal as a combination throttle/clutch control when starting from a standstill. The more smartly you accelerate from the clutch engagement process the less slip it will allow.

In the end- remember this- the paddles are a "demand" system. By pulling a paddle you are demanding a gear- you get that gear when the computer sees all parameters are met.

In the end, it works best if you drive it like a manual. If you "demand" the car to ride the clutch all day, that's what it's going to do.

 

trust me. the F1 works very well, and you will be very happy if you choose to go with the F1 gearbox. my 2000 360 modena with F1 worked very well. i did not have any problems at all. the F1 in my 2002 360 even worked better...seemed a bit "snappier", but hard to quantify. just felt a little better. i would not be surprised if ferrari could update the the software that controls the F1 gearbox, but you'd have to give them a call and ask to make sure.

as far as driving the F1 around town in traffic, parking, steep hills, etc. it's not an issue at all. once you have an F1 it only takes a few minutes to learn/adapt how best to use the F1 in oddball situations (like steep driveways, parking, etc.). trust me. anybody who can drive a 6-speed manual gearbox in traffic, steep driveways, parking, etc. will have absolutely no problem getting comfortable with the F1 in similar situations.

 

For me it is an easy choice. I would rather drive the car than try and provide a computer the required inputs to get its software to output my desired result. Any tiny shift-speed difference between them is absolutely meaningless.

Manufacturers have primarily developed and pushed these automatic transmissions because those "pesky" drivers want to do things that are not compatible with minimizing emissions. Being able to arbitrarily interrupt or modulate power delivery with a clutch adds too many degrees of freedom for the software to deal with.

 

so i presume then that you also disable the ABS, powering steering, stability control, power brakes, etc., right? btw, i bet you've never driven an F1 gearbox, right?

 

Interesting new technology even beyond what is being discussed here..


Hope you enjoy the read.

Should be out in Europe (TVR) by the end of the summer and tested by Euromags such as "Car" or Autocar

 

http://www.zeroshift.com/

 

Now that my left leg is useless, I can get cruise control. Then I will get radar to stop me when I get too close to you. My computer will handle the brakes and the throttle. Next, with GPS, I can lay in my route and it will drive it for me. That way I can sleep as I ride in my car. Great!

I think we all should take the train.

 

Ahh, the imagery, so profound! Look, can I pay you $7000.00 to say that again next week too?

Nobody knooooows! (hiccup) sorry.

DL

 

have you ever driven a 360 with an F1? i bet you haven't.

 

Or you could learn to left foot brake, a skill all racers who use modern machinery should be proficient in.

 

Good. So I will make a similar statement, Not being able to determine where your damn SMG paddles are in a turn, is not the norm for an enthusiast driver, but it may be the norm in your world. Fair? Lol.

Stupid commenst.
Whatever the mode you prefer, you can leave in that mode, when you start the car, it will remain in that mode. What's the difference??? Just use the only mode you want, other modes are just there, they are bonus, they do NOT affect you in anyway.
To me, it is better to have CHOICES of modes, since different drivers prefer different style. I always leave in S5, when I want to have fun I do S6 with DSC off. But others might want a less aggressive shifting modes, so there are slower modes available. What the heck is wrong with that??

I think you need to look up definition on the word "opinion". Opinion is opinion, no right or wrong. You can say in your opinion you can take Kobe 1-on-1, who the hell am I to dispute.
And for the records, I drive the F1 in full throttle accelaration, 8500rpm shifting, 1-2 and 2-3, I did not think the shift was fast at all, period. Disagree all you want, THAT is my opinion.
Maybe it's true that F1 is 355 is slower than SMG in M3 S5 mode(which I drive daily), so I thought it was slower, possible? Also I never ever said I can outshift CONSISTENTLY F1 in a stick. All I said was, after driving that particular F1 GTB hard under full throttle redline shifting, I thought it was slow, an good stick driver might be faster.

Exactly, those are YOUR opinion, you are pefectly entitled to those opinions.
Although the funny thing is, you don't seem to allow me to have opinion


Anyway, enough time waste.
You want to think F1 in 355 is superior to SMG, great.
You want to think F1 is 355 is faster than later Ferrari model F1, great.
You want to think I don't know how to drive, great.
You want to think one should not buy sports car unless driving fast, great.
Blah blah blah, great ...

You win, I lose, I don't know anything. Feel better now? Good, now we can save board resource, lol.

Now you can reply, and have the last words.
have a nice day.

 

Nick and Rick -

Thanks for your responses. I get what you're saying; sounds like 'touch', some got it, some don't, and experience. I guess the bottom line is I'll just have to try to get 'seat time' with an F1......
Maybe my seller will let me have the car for the weekend......? No, I thought not.

(bear in mind I'm coming from a 5 speed, vintage 1967)

thanks again,
James

 

James-

No worries. My Jag is a 1966 E with a 4 speed manual so I have an inkling what era you're talking about. At least the electronics in the Jag are so old they are actually from before Lucas was bad!

 

Another typically close minded statement. Think outside the box for a change.

What's wrong with that?

While BMW was off programming all these other modes that the average (or in your case, below average) Joes don't use, they could be actually working on something that their customers DO use.

11 different shifting program maps? Now if only they got just one of them right! Ferrari's F1 system does away with that- since the shocks are adjustable, if you want a firmer ride you want a quicker shift. I leave that in sport mode all the time. For me the standard mode is a waste although it is still very good.

You "always leave in S5" which means for 99% of the time 10 modes are useless. Now imagine if BMW had got just S5 right and had two modes, your S5, and a sport mode, S6...

How much better would that system be if it would just blip on every downshift... we wouldn't have this discussion.

How much better would it be if the paddle ergonomics were better thought out... we wouldn't have this discussion.

DSC is a joke. Why does it interfere with the driving experience so much? Why do you have to hold down the button to turn it off completely? One more ergonomic nightmare...

Yadda yadda yadda.

So in the end you bought the 6 speed because you thought you were "a good stick driver" who "might be faster" than a "particular F1" you drove. Gee... now your backtracking. You said and I quote with your poor syntax-

So armed with the knowledge (that all enthusiasts have) that all cars, especially all Ferraris, are different, you base your inaccurate reasoning on one slow test drive in a questionable car.

If the F1 had a high speed shift mode button for part throttle shifting to compensate for your driving skill we wouldn't even have this problem. You don't drive the F1 (wrong tense since you don't have one), you drove it- once.

You drove a car once, shifted it up three or four times through 1-2-3, and declare that you know it so well you're an expert and that you can debate others based on your "experience." Keep in mind shifting up is only one part of the equation.

The F1 box rips the SMGII box to shreds when downshifting.

Back to my original point- let's see you shift that 6 speed 355 as quick as the F1.

Not exactly. Once again your lack of critical reading skills hurts this debate.

I disagree with your opinion because it's based in factual inaccuracies.

So why keep posting to this thread?

Yep, I do think all those are true and accurate statements, apart from the poor grammar and syntax you insist on using. You really need to brush up in your skills there. Communicating effectively is important in society.

Thanks. Have fun driving around Long Island at part throttle.

 

If that was true why buy a Ferrari? A Porsche 996 Turbo, GT2, and GT3 are faster then a 360.

Anyway, are you able to drift using a F1 gearbox? I'm not talking about just being able to control a powerslide but actually being able to use the gearing to weight shift.

 

That is a wholly different topic. But... I will say that the driving dynamics of a Porsche rear engined car are not my favorite. If they were truly faster in the situations I want to be fast in, I would be in a Porsche. But for me, they are not... and that is completely off topic. Besides, my Nissan would kill those Porsches in pretty much any situation... PM me if you want to discuss it further.

I'm not sure what you are asking. Could you rephrase that question? For me, anything that I would want to do with a standard box I can do with a F1 box, and do so with more consistency and accuracy.

 

Have to ask....what situations and what kind of Nissan?


From: http://streetracing.tiora.net/japan/drift/drift1.htm
What Is Drifting?

Basically, drifting is getting your car sideways down a road. It doesn't sound very hard does it? Sounds a lot like power sliding huh? Well it isn't. It's much more complex. Instead of a drifter causing a drift and then countering to straighten out, he will instead over-counter so his car goes into another drift. That is the reason many drifters do it in the mountains, because there are many sharp turns strung together. So in essence a good drifter has the ability to take five or six opposing turns without having traction at any point in time.

How is it Done?

There are two ways to start a drift. The first is the clutching technique. When approaching a turn the driver will push in the clutch and shift his car into second gear. Then rev the engine up to around 4000-5000 rpm (it all depends all the model of the car being used) and then slightly turn away from the turn and then cut back towards it hard while at the same time popping the clutch and causing the rear wheels to spin. At this point the drifter has a loss of traction and is beginning to slide around the curve. Now comes the hard part. You have to hold the drift until the next turn. To do this you must keep your foot on the accelerator while at the same time adjusting your car with the steering wheel so you don't spin out. It's not as easy as it sounds. Then as the drifter reaches the end of the turn and approaches the next turn which is in the opposite direction he must cut the wheel in that direction and in some cases, if the previous drift was to slow and they start to regain traction, they must pop the clutch again to get the wheels spinning. And that is how you drift a rear wheel drive car.

 

See my user name... look at my name and location.
If you are into Nissans and are based in the States you may have heard of me. Hint- it's white, it's an inline 6, it's AWD.

Rear engined Porsches... bone stock, are not good handlers in my opinion. Oversteer into corners... understeer out of corners... basically you have to slow down for corners. The 355 doesn't have that issue... enter a corner hot, exit the corner under full throttle. The throttle transition is early, before the apex- almost at the brake marker, and if you left foot brake the transition is even more smooth. With the 355, the harder you go through the corner, the better the outside front tire loads up to carve the line. With a rear engined Porsche like the 996GT2 (which I just drove with a 355B F1, back to back, quite hard a week ago so the memory is still fresh) the rear end breaks loose early in the brake zone, and the throttle transition is much slower since quicker application results in the nose rising and losing front wheel traction. Now for highway cruising, the GT2 blows the 355 away... and also for city driving as a runabout since it's so small... but for those I have other cars. Of course, you can drive around handling problems (aka "personality") but at that price, why? The GT2 is the least logical of all the 996 permutations... the Turbo is the most logical... but also the heaviest, and I prefer my sports cars lighter- do more with less I suppose. Keep in mind I think the Boxster is a superior handler to all the 996 variants.

As for drifting... yes, you can do that with the F1 trans without any issues if you really wanted to, but in a mid engined car it may be harder because the rear wheel mechanical grip is enormous compared to a front engined car- and basically in a drift you are breaking rear wheel traction.. which is why many, if not all, successful drifters drive cars that are front engined, rear wheel drive cars.

 

Are you saying your F355 is faster than 996TT/GT2, or are you saying your Skyline is faster than 996TT/GT2?

How do you slip clutch off a start?
For example, you want to take off a fast but not a full blast launch. In a stick car, you can keep rev at 3000 or so and slip the clutch to take-off.
How do you do that in the F1?

 

What happened to the F1 vs. 6 speed tranny??

 

I don't know... I tried to keep on topic by asking W00dEar to show everyone his shifting prowess since that is the basis for his 6 speed purchase decision, but those requests go unacknowledged. Oh well...