The F1 6-Speed Debate..one more time

Nice a R32.

Seems like the issue is not with the car....its with the driver(you pretty much said that yourself later). If you can't correct your driving to the car don't blame it on the car. The 996(bone stock) I talked about are much faster in the corners then a 355 if you know how to drive them. Does that make a GT2, GT3, or Turbo more fun to drive? No. Thus, your statement that a faster car is always more fun is false.

Then get a GT3, its about the same price as a nice used 355.

So again if "real drivers" would sit on the nose of the car if it got them to the finish line quicker, then why would they not adapt to driving a rear engine car that is a Porsche(which is faster then a 355)? So your arguement that an F1 is better because its faster doesn't hold water.

 

Take it to PMs if you want to discuss further. This is not the topic at hand. For what it's worth I think you have misconceptions on what "fast" is and how a car should handle.

 

Why the fnck are we talking about drifting here. Drifting, well the current use of the term, is BS and simply about showing off and wasting tyres.

Real drifting (4 wheel drift) is the natural attitude of a car when driven hard on a race track (should be only for the track IMO). Tyres grip most in the straight ahead position and thus correct cornering requires the appropriate amount of torque to the driving wheels to maintain the angle of the wheel related to the cornering angle to be within a certain slip angle of the tyre. If your car is too straight you are not on the limit, if your car is too sideways you are over the limit and simply wasting time through the corner.

Please, please, please take the wanky modern art of drifting to another site ...


Returning to the F1 versus 6-speed debate

As I have already said I would buy the 6 speed. Not because it is the fastest or whatever, but because I have paid all this money for a car and thus want to use the MOST of it. Having to push in a clutch pedal and change my own gears means that I am interacting MORE with the car than a F1 owner who is just flipping paddles. Thus IMO I am getting more bang for my bucks.

Pete's opinion

 

What is your favourite color?

I guess this question is as relevant as the F1 debate.

[mine is blue and F1]

 

So absolutely true it is 100% personal, and this is why I am disappointed that Ferrari do not supply a 6 speed Stradale. This also worries me that Ferrari intends to ditch arguably most famous trademark ... the open gated gearshift. I guess technology moves on ...

As anybody converted a Stradale to 6 speed yet?

I believe that the gearboxes, etc. are the same and it is possible (or used to be with other models).

Pete's discussing

 

I agree with you to some point. What these D1 events and what not kinda takes real drifting down from what its real uses are. But being able to get your car to drift using a F1 gearbox is a valid question. That is the question in the first place...can you shift your car's weight using the F1 gearbox like you could a manual? Thats where drifting comes in because we're not just talking about being able to control a powerslide.

 

The best system will be the one you are currently driving. I absolutely loved my SMG and thought it the best thing since sliced bread when I had that car. Now I have a Maserati Spyder GT and am having a blast shifting, But next car might be a F1, And I am sure I will think that is the best.

 

What I haven't heard much in this thread are compelling arguments why anyone would want to choose F1 over a 6speed.

I contend that a few milliseconds of shifting time difference are meaningless for all but F1-level tracking. Why else would I want to give up control to software and sensors when I am quite effective having it do what I want, when I want. I used to think it was for people who were stuck in traffic all the time (not the best application of a Ferrari). Lately, my conclusions about of lack of smoothness on take off and F1 clutch problems seem to not support this potential advantage.

Oh, to save everyone from more vacuous postings asking the question... while I have driven F1 355's, I have not driven an F1 360.

 

John-

It is precisely for that reason (the "few milliseconds") that I bought the F1, and it is meaningful to me and also to many others who bought the F1 system. I am also perfectly capable of upshifting, heel/toe downshifting, DDD (double de-clutch downshifting) in a variety of cars including a 6 speed 355 so for me it's not a skill issue- it's because there is no way a person can shift in either direction, consistently, as fast as the F1 system, and that, to me, is the main advantage- especially since I've got more track miles on the car than street miles. For what it's worth, I've checked the datalogs on one of my other cars, and the straight shift up (non-dog leg, 1-2 or 2-4) is over 3/10s of a second long. That is the fastest consistent shift, and I doubt anyone can consistently shift up faster than that (testing was done at a drag strip for acceleration data, car is capable of 10 second runs). On a track with a dozen shifts (upshifts AND downshifts) that adds up very quicky and can be worth a lot of time, especially with the dogleg shifts and the Ferrari gate. The Hill Engineering gate should improve the shift speed over the dogleg shifts, but they still won't be as fast as the F1 since the straight shifts already take twice the amount of time.

I agree, the F1 system is not for city driving or traffic, and yes, that is not where any Ferrari shines either (of course, neitherF1 or SMGII trans likes city traffic either, so it's a category issue not isolated to the F1 system). I have not had "lack of smoothness" or clutch issues that many here have talked about, and my car has over 20K miles on it.

As you can see, our preferences are vastly different. You prefer "the driving experience" and I prefer "outright performance" and we have defined them.

 

I have always figured that there are far too many variables determining net track times than the shifting differences. Even if two cars are engineered/tuned to be exactly the same except for F1 or manual shifting, I fully expect the better driver with a stick will beat a lesser driver with an F1. That pairing will stay the same all the way up to the pro ranks, when the relative skills start to equalize out enough to finally make shifting speed significant. Unless you are a pro with a pro-prepared car, it strikes me that the other rate-limiting factors would be more important than shift speed differences.

 

I've had my '99 Spider with F1 for about 2 months now. Enjoying it thorougly and don't know if I would change. I enjoy the ease and still feel like I'm driving a race car. Good news and the bottom line is...it's a Ferrari !

 

You have a point there... But most people are not as efficient shifting the manual gearbox. 360's gearbox is a different beast all together (I own one). I guess I can compare it to ABS (most people lock the wheels under heavy braking). I've owned manual gearbox cars almost all my life and non-have been as tricky as the 6 speed 360 (my 4 speed 68 camero ss with a heavy clutch may be and way too much power). Plus I had a problem with the linkage, which I understand is a common problem with 360s. Finding 2nd gear under heavy braking coming into a corner is a chore for me. People who test drive both get sold on the F1 gear box because that is one less variable they have to think about when performance driving. Performance driving may be different for all of us as well, some may get it up to red line and shift and some may short shift and push it through the apex, who knows. For those who push the car to the limit and have less experience with the car F1 is a great aid. And as some have said if you like left foot braking (I used to do it on my 68 GTO) 360M F1 is a great car for that. Again, to answer the original question, I prefer manual gearbox for the street and F1 gearbox for the track. I am all for Ferrari to provide a manual clutch for take off and reverse on the F1 as well (a button on the wheel).

 

In your example I think there are too many variables the make that assumption.

Better driver vs. lesser driver... what are their strengths, what are their weaknesses...

All I am saying is that the F1 box makes a difference in my laptimes at the track, a huge difference, at least to me and my engineers. It makes a difference when I shift, where I shift, how many times I shift, how I apply the throttle, how I brake (left foot vs. right foot), how I apply the throttle during braking (left foot braking with right foot throttle application), how much time both my hands are on the wheel vs. not (more, or less, wheel control), etc.

Also, a shift that may be considered not significant with a conventional clutch manual (shifting time vs. in gear time) may be very significant with the F1 system.

Now, after all that, if you can't see the benefits as clearly as you see the drawbacks of the F1 system over a standard clutch, may I suggest some more seat time as a passenger with someone who has some significant track experience with the F1 system.

In the end, it really doesn't matter one way or another. Both are Ferraris, both have strengths and weaknesses.

 

FWIW, at a track day at Laguna, I had no problem all day long with the gearbox, which includes heavy braking and a downshift to 2nd for the last hairpin. I find the 360 gearbox and linkage, at least in my 2004, to be among the best I have ever driven, and I have no complaints. I will absolutely grant the point that the F1 is superior on the track, will never miss a shift, etc, but I sure had fun with the manual at Laguna.

Gary

 

I thought you said you weren't pushing the car during the event last month. If I drive leasurly with speed I don't have any issue. That takes me back to the comment I made earlier, going fast and turning fast lap times could be different for different individules. Of course if you are better driver that will make all the difference as well. I can short shift fine and a lot of people say short shifting in turn 11 is a more reasonable way to go. At least for me, coming from 4th gear into turn 11 and down shifting to 2nd under heavy heavy braking is a chore. I get it done and blip the throttle but not as fast as I can get 4th to 3rd! 3rd to 2nd linkage action is a bit more complex as there are two separate movements in opposite direction in the linkage and causes the 3rd to 2nd be a bit more difficult at least in my car.

 

Thus isn't it more satisfying finally getting a downshift into 2nd under heavy braking RIGHT ... than just pulling a paddle.

You see my debate that the 6 speed is BETTER is based on the fact that is challenges the driver MORE. That is what I want a Ferrari to do.

Lets face it unless you are entering a race series, who gives a stuff if the F1 shift is X milliseconds faster ... it does not matter when you are just doing laps around a track ... because you are not racing/competing against anybody.

Thus I want a Ferrari to be a challenging, even hard car to drive, so that I have to step up and improve my skills to master the beast.

Pete's view

 

Sorry mate, but I am sure that Ferrari could not give a toss if you cannot do wanky drifting in your Ferrari. Ferraris should be about lap times and fast cruising NOT this sort of 'style' driving because the people that do this are too scared to enter a race series and really prove they can drive or not.

Thus totally irrelevant. If you want to shift the weight that much in your Ferrari you have buggered completely the entry to the corner and should fix that not hang it all out like a plonker

A car will correctly 4 wheel drift through a corner if taken right and no sudden throwing of weight is required ... unless you want to waste time and show off. Sealed track events should not be driven like you are a rally driver, chucking the car around purposely breaking traction, etc. Try smooth next time and watch your lap times drop like a stone ... and also your tyres last. If you need to tighten your line entering a corner a lift on the throttle (if close to the limit) should be enough to unload the rear tyres and cause the back of the car to break traction ... but again not the fastest way but possible and I'm sure would work fine F1 or 6 speed.

Thus SHOW off drifting does NOT equal Ferrari.

Pete's opinion

 

Then you should try a P-turbo, by all accounts they're far more challenging and difficult to drive fast than most F-cars, but much faster when you master them.

 

Yes I have heard that. A guy in New Zealand has one with something like 700 hp that he track races in classic meetings (or anywhere they will allow him). He is a very good driver and if the car is pointing straight it is not for very long ... lots of fun me thinks

Pete's excited

 

Yeah dude, that sounds like great fun. What can I say, I'm a sucker for the boxer engine. That' why I got a Subaru, and am hoping to be able to get a P-car soon (fingers crossed).

Beautiful place Australia (& NZ, I assume, though I haven't been there), lots of great cars there, I totally enjoyed myself. Pity I was only there for a 2 day seminar, couldn't really do very much.

 

Everything is relative. I wasn't taking any chances with the car, but I wasn't just cruising around either. I took it easy at the corners that would cause a lot of damage with an off, and pushed pretty hard at more forgiving areas, like turn 11, which did involve heavy braking and a downshift into 2nd. I was turning 1:50 in traffic, my son was doing 1:47 with no gearbox issues either. The car is certainly capable (in stock trim) of probably 1:43 with no traffic and pushing the limits harder than I would care to.

Gary

 

Gary-

I'm sure your car is capable of going quite a bit quicker, probably in the 1.3x.xx area.

1.43.xx is what a good driver in a stock engined Honda S2000 with tires does... those things don't have traction, either mechanical or aero downforce generated, like your car does, and they definitely lose time going up the hill.

 

I do agree that it is relative and shows what good drivers can do with stock car off the showroom floor. I think this is the essence of what this thread is all about. And shows F1 or not a good driver can still turn good lap times. I on the other hand can do a lot better than 1:58 if I was shifting F1. There was a 360C with a professional driver that was doing lap times in low 1:40s similar to Radicals low 1:40s. A much lighter car, slicks, paddle shifter, and much better brakes than your car. That's great!

Matt

 

Uh...I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I don't know for sure without a little research, but that sounds a little fast to me. A few months earlier I was spectating at a DE at Laguna and a very well-driven E46 M3 (driven by a multiple nat'l go-kart champion) was doing around 1:50 with no traffic. You may be right, but right now I am inclined to doubt it. Let me ask some of my buddies with S2000s and I'll get back to you. When you say "with tires" do you mean R-compounds, slicks, or street?

Gary

 

Gary-

I am on this list, albeit somewhat slower... Trust me, with only 4 laps that day (over two years ago), I was able to go 1.46.xx and if I had driven my car as much as Jason Saini drove it, I would have knocked off at least two seconds. I am sure I can go even faster now.

http://nsxfiles.com/fame_laguna.htm

Cheers!