The F1 6-Speed Debate..one more time

GTRpower is now fully pumped and ready to break lap records everywhere ...

Pete's just having a laugh ... I believe you ... really

 

Pete-

2 items.

1. I know a bunch of drivers who can kick my ass... so that's not an issue. Case in point- Jason Saini can also go far quicker now... two years later.

2. Your view

and you opinion

seem to be contradictory.

Nick's having a laugh at Pete's expense... really

 

Only having a laugh, I knew exactly what you were meaning.

Yes they do at first glance, but unless you are actually competing lap times are all about your personal improvement ... thus if you have an F1 car OR a 6 speed you will still be working on improving yourself. I can see the F1 being an asset when actually racing against others and other cars, but not just for playing with your self, er, car.

If you had a 6 speed and bought a F1 and were all of a sudden X mille seconds faster ... guess what it is NOT you and is nothing to get excited about ... again unless you are competing against others, then every mille second is a BIG deal.

Pete's answering Nick

 

I like how the 6sp looks, and I love the sound of it when you're going through the gears. CLick....Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....Click.......and on and on


I've always wanted a ferrari, and have always admired the shift gates. that being said the F1 tranny is a great innovation, but I did not want one. Now if I could have two Ferraris this would be a different story. There is no question that the F1 offers faster shift times and more consistent downshifts that allow for more precise control and more precise braking as well.

 

I dunno. Once you start doing suspension mods and adding slicks or R-compounds, the whole equation changes, and it gets really hard to compare times. My friends tell me a well-driven bone stock S2000 at Laguna is good for about 1:50. Can anyone else chime in with a strictly stock lap time at Laguna in a 360?

Gary

 

Pete-

I contend that the headroom for improvement is far higher in the F1 than in the conventional shifter. New skills learned such as left foot braking and more time with both hands on the wheel alone will bear that out, not to mention the advantage of the faster shifts. To assign credit to car or driver alone, and not the complete package, is myopic- after all, neither can operate alone and there are overlaps of driver's skill, car preparation and car type.

But then again, most of this thread is myopic in nature so that is what we should expect.

As for "competing" or however you want to put it, I track my progress through several different areas, lap times being one of them, datalogging being another, and to me, every little bit of time does count, because in the end it's a 355, clutch pedal or not. I think it's sour grapes syndrome showing for those who buy sports cars yet do not choose the higher performing model when given the choice. I personally do not understand the apathetic attitude of noodling around a track, not having a goal... why even bother! Every time I go to the track, whether it is a HPDE day or a race, I learn something about either me or the car, and the end result of each event is a hopeful refinement and understanding of both to get faster and more consistent. Now, if you never go to the track, that's a whole other story, since you wouldn't really be performance oriented to begin with, and the POV becomes drastically skewed with an even wider gap in thinking, and for those who bought the car as large items of jewelry or furniture, good for you, I'm glad you can appreciate it...

Gary-

The late Paul Mumford went 1.46.xx at LS in his box stock S2000 about two years ago. Good shoe... it's possible, which is why I know for a fact I can go faster there when I get another opportunity with that car. Your car has so many advantages over an S2000- power, aero, drivetrain layout, tire footprint, suspension, brakes... pretty much everywhere if you ask me.

 

It is interesting how the point about this thread continues to be lost in all the smoke and mirror. Let me remind you about the subject...F1 or gated 6 speed! The original question wasn't why people buy sports cars. Last time I checked Ferrari dealer sold cars to whoever slammed the cash on the table. They didn't give a hoot if they were going to park it in their living room to look at it.

 

Yeah, on A032's, so not quite "box stock". And he was one HELL of a driver. If someone can do a sub 1:40 at Laguna in a true box-stock 360 I'll be quite impressed. Not saying it's impossible, but very impressive. Will FCA be doing any timing at the National event in August?

Gary

 

Sorry, off topic, don't read/reply if you want to stay on topic, just responding...

Yokohama A032R tires are crap in this day and age. I've had them, used three sets, they are not an advantage over the OEM BS S-02PP on the S2000. The A032R is a decade old tire design, and the US gets a crap tire compound. The Yoko is maybe worth 1/2 second at most... and it blunts the one thing the S2000 is truly stellar at- a sharp turn in.

Yokohama recently gave me two sets of 048R tires (the only two sets they had of that size) a month ago. I don't think they are anywhere as good as the new Hoosier R3S04... in fact they aren't anywhere near as good as the old R3S03 either... so given that comparison, the old 032R is even more antiquated in both tire construction and compound.

Paul Mumford was a good driver. His talent was on the sharper end for a weekend warrior (which 99.9% of us are)... but that doesn't mean others can't do it either especially with two more years worth of time and knowledge of the car on that track in the public domain.

What it means though, is that the car can do the times, just like I think your car has the capacity to go under a 1.40.xx.

Or... god forbid, it can't, and actually be barely quicker than a S2000.

 

Here's my take (for the 360 anyway):

Spider - wind, noise, sky, open...get the 6 speed. Enjoying the ride, the gates, the 3 pedal dance, the sound of "your" throttle blip. No lap times no STI hounding you, nobody timing your sector. I really think the 348/355/360 spider with the 6 speed is the ultimate road Ferrari.

Modena/Stradale - noise, ridgidity, racer X, track days, sport seats - get the F1. The true performance could, over the long haul, be better extracted for most "normal" drivers out of the F1. It is far more consistant if you have a clock on you. You will also have far less stress on you when those pesky ricers come stalking.

 

So, I assume you want your Ferrari with no ABS, right? That makes the car more of a challenge to drive at the limit... and increases your interaction with the car... and improves your braking skills. Clearly... no F1 and no ABS.

How about syncro-mesh gears? You want those gone, too, right? Afterall, in the good ol' days two clutch pedal pushes were required per shift (aka. double clutching)... syncros eliminated the need for one clutch pedal press and the F1 eliminated the need for the other clutch pedal press. So, if you want no F1 because you want to do that clutch pedal pressing, then surely you want to do both presses. Right? The old gearboxes were certainly more of a challenge to drive... and you want that. And it'll keep your shifting skills finely tuned.

So, clearly... no F1, syncros, or ABS. And that's great! That's why some much prefer driving the old vintage cars.

I, on the other hand, prefer to perfect my skills with the latest technology. For example, I left-foot brake everywhere; and I shift on the track in places that would not be possible by mere mortals with no F1 and no syncros. I leverage ABS technology in certain trail braking situations. And I spend much more time perfecting the weight balance and traction issues than focusing on double-clutching heel-and-toe shifting.

Is my approach better than yours? No. Just a different preference on what skills / activities we want to be working on while driving our sportscars.


Thus, I assert the answer to the "F1 6-speed Debate... one more time" is the same as it has been in every other of the umpteen threads asking the same question:

Its purely personal preference.

Don't ask others' for opinions... just go drive one of each and see what you prefer.

 

Brian-

You forgot to replace the starter motor with a hand crank and tubeless tires with solid rubber strips amongst other things...

 

I own both a 6 speed and f1. I love both. I prefer the f1 in the lightweight 355 with high revs, and the manual in the TR (soon to be 550). I am not a gifted shifter so when I drive the f1, I sound as precise as anyone you know. The TR is heavier and seems to keep its speed up when I depress the clutch so shifting is easier for me to accomplish. When I drove the 550, I felt the 6 speed gate was one of the most important features of the car, but the f1 seems more appropriate for the 355.

I would add that I only drive my car on the street (office/errands/etc) and feel that the f1 is perfectly suited to daily use. There is too much wrong press about how it is only for the track (I am proof of the contrary, I love it on the street).

It seems to me that as acceleration times on cars get lower and lower, the biggest drag on performance will soon be the driver. If the 0 - 100 time is 10 seconds and it takes the driver 3 seconds to shift from 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, then 30% of the time is wasteful. If f1 shifters can decrease this by lets say one half, then manufacturers will push toward automation to keep acceleration times low. Simple math. Estimate in your mind what future 0 - 100 times will be and remember humans will not get better, and it becomes even more of a problem.

Fortunately, Fcars are made by Italians who despite the needs for speed, do not sacrifice style, so I predict 6 speeds will continue to be available on the GT cars, but for the cars that are sold on acceleration times (street or track), f1 will continue to gain share.

Lastly, for those that try to make things intentionally more difficult as some sort of "purity of intention" choice, I remember playing my wooden Jack Kramer Professional tennis racquet in college thinkning that only someone at my level would appreciate the effort I put in to hit it sweet, until my wife started returning my serves with a graphite oversized.

be nice

 

Brian,

I 100% agree with you. You are missing the point of my post. I'll try again

My point is that with only 2 pedals left foot braking is dead easy. We all do it in gokarts and automatic cars all the time. So have you really improved your skills? I say no, because the removal of the clutch pedal has meant that left foot braking is now a no brainer.

True but all you are doing is pulling on a paddle ... the CAR shifts for you, thus again nothing special here from Brian the driver.

Again the car is doing the clever stuff for you ... NOT you the driver. Thus a ham fisted no talent driver could probably brake just as well as you ... how does that make you feel?

And yes that is the point of moving forward technology ... making everything else trivial tasks so you can move your concentration to another area.

My point is that most people (and I do not think this applies to you Brian because you are aware that the car is doing this stuff and not you) think they have become better or faster drivers ... when they haven't they have just bought a faster car. Just like if I sold my Alfa Romeo and bought a 308 Ferrari ... yep I will lap faster, but I'm still probably driving at my same limits and making the same mistakes the car is just more capable and faster ... and thus is making me look good.

Now I am not saying that you are not a good driver if you get F1 or 6 speed ... does not matter, what I am saying is that (like you) you have to learn to maximise whatever you buy. Thus the challenge is more difficult (and to me more satisfying) with the 6 speed but ultimately it will be the slower car.

Now I know you track alot and also I know you are intelligent so I assume that when you first tracked your Stradale and compared times to your Modena you did not get all warm inside thinking man I have improved so much. Instead you would have thought yes this new car I bought is X seconds faster right out of the box than the Modena. Now you will be back exactly where you were with the Modena, ie. trying to learn how to make this car lap faster ... no difference, you are just going slightly faster, thus from a drivers satisfaction point of view, ALSO no difference. This is because it is about personal improvement not the ultimate lap time that gives most people satisfaction and a sense of achievement.

Thus in conclusion I 100% agree and always have that is a 150% personal preference, but I just hope that owners of the F1 system DO realise that it is NOT them that is doing the fast up changes, changes through a corner and perfect down changes ... it is a computer, and thus no sense of achievement should be felt.

That is my point

Pete's opinion is 100% based on personal satisfaction ...
ps: One day I would love to try a F1 ...

 

And you evaded the questions that I asked in my post (though I admit they may have sounded rhetorical)...

We know you prefer manual to F-1.
Do you also prefer no syncros?
Do you also prefer no ABS?

The same things can be said about those.
Switching to a car with syncros such that you can skip the double-clutching will suddenly make your lap times faster... but you haven't really improved as a driver.
Switching to a car with ABS may not make your best laptime much faster, but will make your average lap time much faster as threshold braking suddenly got much easier... but you haven't really improved as a driver.

So, do you?

And as a counter-argument, consider this... what defines what it means to "improve as a driver"? Have you looked at the analyses of MS's driving in his F1 car? MS gets time that many others do not by pressing on both brake and accelerator at the same time... he will brake but not lift... he leverages the F1 tranny to allow him to do things he couldn't otherwise do. Are those not skills?

What if I asserted that MS would kick Fangio's butt in today's F1 cars; but Fangio would kick MS's butt in a 50's F1 car... and I asserted that was the case because the skills that must be mastered are very different due to the changes in technology. Then who has "real drivers skills"? MS or Fangio? I argue they both do, but different skills for different technologies. I choose to work on mastering today's latest technologies. You choose to work on mastering 80's technology (or depending upon your answers above, earlier technology).

BTW, I have fun rowing gears too! I look forward to having a Dino one day... and want the full experience... I won't be fitting an F1 into it, no matter how much faster it would make it. But it also won't be my regular track car.

 

No ... so agree that my gear changing skills are not as developed as a driver of a non-synchroed car.

Absolutely. My lastest family car is the first I have ever had with it ... I have played with it (you cannot turn it off on a Toyota ) and only once made it kick in. I just about had to stand the car on its nose on a damp road for that to happen ...

Agree.

Agree, but my point is that MS would be the first to admit that the car is changing the gears for him. I believe that many who own F1 cars still think they are the clever ones changing gear through a corner, etc. They are NOT.

Agree, but my point was that some owners still brag that they are the clever ones ...

The only other comment I have to make relates to mastering today's latest technology. With the gear change thing ... it does not matter how you play with the paddle the computer will perfect the change. Nothing to master here a no brainer. My 3 year old daughter could change gear just as could as MS in a 360 F1. Obviously changing gear is no longer to be considered a skill at all, which is cool, but when I drive my boring Toyota to work and as it is automatic I am almost asleep with boredom. All I have to do is steer ocassionally and I get there. Oh and ofcourse accelerate and brake sometimes. I find the lack of having to change gear extremely boring. While I realise that with a 360 F1 system I still have to think and flick the paddle (I think that is right or is there a full auto mode?) will this keep me awake driving to work and back?

Pete's agreeing with you Brian. I just laugh when I hear somebody bragging about how they changed gear in the middle of a corner, etc.

 

Why do you believe that? I don't know any even moderately good driver that doesn't know that an F1 is "cheating" so to speak. And the kids that think as you are describing have far worse delusions than about their shifting skills. I just smile. And then lap them on the track... most get the hint... the rest are hopelessly clueless.

I'm curious, why do they bother you so? They are far less bothersome than the street racers who think they've accomplished something when the Ferrari is "too scared" to race them. An idiot Firebird challenged me the other day... when I didn't take him up on it, he yells from his open window "Use it!" and then chuckles to his companion. (My plate says USE IT.) I had places to go, but I should've backed up and pointed out that in this traffic I couldn't accelerate for more than about 1/2 second before I'd be eating the back end of the next group of cars... and handed him a card with directions to Motorsport Ranch (our area track).

 

A post along time ago ...

They do not really bother me ... er, I guess they do. As an ex-racer I guess I get a little tired of being beaten by people with money and thus the technology and far less ability at the wheel than myself. I think this is what it comes back to. Motor racing is hardly ever even because of the different income or otherwise money level. I'm not a rich guy and all my race cars have been built or modified or otherwise worked on by me. I didn't have the funds to just through the fancy stuff at the car, I had to make things work ... thus I guess I see the F1 shift as another richer mans tool to beat the more talented driver. Then again if you are racing a Ferrari you already are a rich man

One day hopefully I can try this paddle shifting thing and I will relate my experience back to you. Until then I simply have a hate on the car doing things for me ... which is (as you have pointed out) based on the time/technology level I like . You see I see things like ABS and F1 as working towards a car that my wife wants, i.e. you get in and say to the computer take me to X! Every time we develop these fancy automated things like F1 we are working closer to the car that needs NO driver input ... a extremely sad day, infact the end of automotive enthusiasm IMO. As I see this enthusiasm to be centred around driving not 'How cool is that computer, it can corner faster than yours, etc.'

Pete's one eyed opinion

 

You've just got to handicap properly! I'm typically beat by people who bring their cars on trailers so that they can race on Hoosiers. Compared to me on street-worthy tires, they have a 3-4 second advantage on typical tracks... that's far more than F1 provides! I will admit that its annoying... but given the huge variety of cars that come out these days, you just have to "adjust" the times properly. The nice thing is that then everyone can be happy!!

Agreed... the day when safety concerns lead to automated roadways will be a sad day indeed. And I can see your concern with F1 and ABS. However, I don't see ABS and F1 as working closer to that... those technologies simply replace certain driver's skills with other driver's skills. The driver is still making all the decisions and is still making all the real time adjustments to keep the car on the edge... he just has some additional tools that allow him to keep the car even closer to the edge for even longer... and with a little more safety (which is an important concern for those of us who can afford our Ferraris as long as we don't start breaking our Ferraris).

 

Brian,

I feel I need to say thanks for the chat. It was fun

Regarding your comment about racing guys on Hoosiers versus your road tyres. I'm just trying to understand what you mean by racing. I thought you did track days where technically on track racing is not allowed and passing restricted to the straights (I believe). Am I way off track?

My term of racing is forming up on the start grid, getting the green light and it is all on until the chequered flag. Thus usually the race series rules keep us fairly even .... but ofcourse you always have one or two racers that spend considerably more than the rest and thus their car has all the good parts. My cars (especially the last) were always good but I did this by putting every cent I had in to my racing ... thus I really felt the pain when an engine popped , others didn't and thus never missed a round, etc.

Continue to enjoy the Stradale ... I don't deny that I am jealous of the fun and enthusiasm I read in your posts for the car

Pete

 

Nice pun. Yes, I use "racing" liberally here. The Stradale only sees autocross "racing" and the "bench racing" associated with "restricted passing track days"... both a case of comparing recorded times. The Stradale will likely never see real wheel-to-wheel racing.

 

It keeps being held out that if one does not like an F1 tranny, then one shouldn't like ABS braking (etc).

I definitely would not want ABS braking if to have it I would be required to start using a push-button on the steering wheel for all my braking instead of a pedal.

 

Almost nobody would... but that's not a good comparison. In that case you'd be leaving a foot idle to do nothing (in an F1) and overloading hands with an extra activity that would get in the way of many driving maneuvers. Heel-and-toe would give way to thumb-and-twist.

In contrast, F1 frees up the left-foot to be able to brake... two pedals for two feet. Further, the F1 uses paddles behind the wheel such that you don't have to switch to steering one-handed for so long while shifting.


Sooo, based on your complaint here, would you like F1 better if they kept the shifter in its normal place with the normal gate pattern? They could do that.

 

---off topic---
Your thinking is not clear.

Motorsports has always been about the rich racing. Competitive motorsports costs money- at every level.

As "an ex-racer" as you put it, you know money is the great equaliser... or unfair advantage.

As a driver, it's your responsiblity to get the best possible finish. As a team owner (yes, at all levels you should think that way) it's your responsiblity to provide the driver with the best possible chance to win.

Now if you're a "one man band" so to say, and you're not winning or doing well, which side of the equation are you performing poorly in?

Judging by your statement it seems like you were not a good team owner on several different levels. If you were as good a driver as you think, convincing a competitive team to take you on would have not been that hard. But since you aren't, I would think you've deluded yourself into thinking how important winning is to you. In the US, one story comes to mind- of two guys who arrived late to a local race due to their full time jobs, begged to sleep on the floor of a hotel room because they didn't have money, kicked ass in the races, and in later years reached the pinnacle of US tintop road racing... Boris Said and Peter Cunningham. If you want it enough, are talented enough, and are willing to sacrifice a lot, it can be done, but to just b!tch and whine about a "rich man's tool," in of all places a Ferari forum, is a lot to swallow.

 

Today is a beautiful day........

Top down...cruise around......F1.....smooth as silk