Yup. Plugzit did that modification. I can hardly believe that was almost 10 years ago. Here is the thread. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/348-355-sponsored-bradan/125988-355-throttle-bodies-348-project.html All us O.G. Stooges got together for the install. Sadly the project went back to stock because of.....drum roll..........the inability to get it TUNED. Like I said, us a hot rodders will still hot rod our 348s.
It was for smog. I wanted to run velocity stacks with no plenum. That would have required tuning with a haltec or motec. Someday.....
Ah yes, that makes sense. No way that would have passed the visual test. You gotta finish that project Bruce. Say, could you measure the total runner length of those, from the opening of the v-stacks to the back of the intake valve. I'm curious how long the path is, and what harmonic it's tuned for.
I am surprised that the F355 setup can't be adapted to the 348, or am I missing something? After all the F355 (in 1995) used dual MAFs, secondary air injection, oil vapor recovery, fuel pressure regulators connected to the IRTBs, and fuel vapor recovery provisions. I thought that the bore spacing was even the same. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Here is a pic showing the f119 is totally capable of spinning up to 9000rpm, and producing 430hp. Image Unavailable, Please Login
You can also see in this picture, from one of the 348LM cars, race engine needed plenums much bigger than stock. No question in my mind it's to help with breathing at 9000rpm. Probably even running ITBs underneath. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the stock intake manifold is restricting the breathing of the f119 = restricting the power it is capable of producing. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I am just curious.... has anyone tried putting the F129 head on a F119 motor? I have no idea if they are compatible. That idea just has me thinking, "what if"?
Not that I know if. Besides, from the flow bench numbers I've seen all the f119 head needs is larger valves, and maybe even a little port work, to out flow the f129 head. So why bother when it f119 head is more than capable of getting the job done?
Valid points. I agree with that, unless the F129 head bolted right up to the F119 block, because it would be dead simple to put the ITB's in. Although I love ITB's, I am not sure that they really are going to be the answer when looking at flow restrictions. Sure, they have the potential to increase throttle response, but there are other ways to increase throttle response. You should see what you can do to throttle response with the throttle body behind a twin screw supercharger. Don't try this, seriously, that setup was exceptionally loud, like diabolically loud and not girlfriend/wife friendly.... However, the throttle response was unbelievable with 15 psi of boost from not much above idle all the way to redline, even 4 PSI was sufficient to really wake up throttle response.
I'm only on page 6 reading, but I will chime in here. This is an awesome thread and I am learning a lot. I can say from a corporate and institutional approach, I think it is entirely possible that the F119 was "choked" for marketing AND technical reasons. Remember that the Motronic system was updated during production. Since your research here has shown the tb's and intakes to be undersized, I think Ferrari may have known they could do more but not felt they had the electronics to do it. That may just be a cop out since the pace of change was fast anyway. It my be that LDM was upset -personally- that such a thing had to happen for all of these reasons and if he could storm out of the pit lane like he did in 2014, he would have done so. Instead he just slammed it in the press. I bet the landscape at the time was for bigger and better and new. The 355 is clearly heavily based on the 348 but styling was changing to the rounder edged forms. I believe there is more power to be had in the engine. The LM types are proof of that. I think the OBD system probably caused a distraction from the fundamentals of the intake system and it got "left on the table" or got intentionally choked for marketing reasons. I just read in Forghieri on Ferrari that Mauro had a unibody designed successor designed after the 288GTO and it looks strikingly like an Acura NSX before they designed it! This got cancelled too and with the acidic climate at Ferrari then, he finally left for Lamborghini. The 348 was designed instead. His recent book is a must read!
^^^This. Except don't forget that using F129 heads would require different pistons as well, so not exactly an easy bolt-on upgrade. The F129 is clearly just a logical development of that particular series of V8 engines, but since it was a factory effort it was no big deal to swap pistons when the heads were redesigned to add an intake valve. But yeah, for real performance gains a blower is absolutely going to spank induction system mods, even if it doesn't produce quite as much HP. Because what has been left out of this thread is a discussion about increasing torque, which is what we need to be chasing if we want our cars to be quicker in real world conditions.
Well as I was saying earlier, even a 25 HP shot of nitrous would be a boon at 2500 RPM. Now, as you were saying torque is what would make the real world difference, so imagine a static 50 ft/lb torque increase by utilizing a progressive nitrous controller beginning at 2625 RPM at WOT (25 HP) which at 5250 RPM is now 50 HP and at 7875 RPM is 75 HP, using a progressive controller. I am willing to bet that you could run such a system (dry system with slightly larger injectors) all damn day without running the bottle empty very quickly and without significant risk to the engine. An additional 50 ft/lbs of torque throughout the entire powerband would be transformative, yet still relatively low risk.
I think John is on to something and I have stated so in the past. The 348 engine was certainly capable with some effort, but there was no desire or support from the factory. Plus LdM's negative attitude towards the car and his effort to make his statement with the 355. Don't forget that the early 90's were not kind to exotic car sales.
Excellent point, but I have no interest in nitrous for many, many reasons. A couple of the deal killers are that many insurance companies won't insure a car with nitrous and it is typically not "legal" on a road course. I have a passing knowledge of what can be accomplished with nitrous and I fully understand that it has its place, but IMO that is not on a sports or road racing car. Now, I gather that there are some people here who are primarily interested in achieving a certain power number, and for them it might be worth considering. As is the case with forced induction, the torque increase is phenomenal and would result in Real World performance gains far in excess of what would be realized by just increasing HP through better breathing and higher revs. For anyone who doubts the real world advantage of torque, drive a 355 and 360 back to back on a road course. The HP numbers aren't that different but the actual performance difference is marked. Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races.
Better breathing and improved harmonic tuning WILL allow the f119 to produce more torque. From the factory the f119 is rated at 228 lb/ft of torque at the crank. My car's best pull put down 234 lb/ft to the HUBS on a Dynapack dyno. Let's say on the Dynapack there is only an -8% loss, it's probably more through the gear box, but we'll stick to that lower loss factor = about 245 lb/ft +/- at the crank at that loss ratio. That is at LEAST +26 lb/ft more than what it's rate at from the factory. All from a better breathing. On a dyno dynamics my car put down 210lb/ft to the wheels. On the exact same dyno Maxwell's 348 did approximately 243 lb/ft to the wheels. Meaning it's making +33 lb/ft more torque than my car. Adding that to my estimated torque puts Maxwell's f119 around 278-ish lb/ft of torque at the crank. That is a gain at the crank of around +50 lb/ft of torque over the factory rating, all from a MUCH better breathing engine and more rpm. It is also 360 Modena torque territory. Yup, you can get that from better breathing via properly tuned headers AND intake runners. You can also multiply torque via gear reduction. AndyH and Maxwell are both running 355 six speed gearboxes. Ask Andy how many 355s and 360s he has run down on the track. Last I talked to him, and on his last track outing, they put him in the expert class and he hand to run with the full on race cars. He was hanging tough with a race spec Challenge 360 on track, and that is with full interior, hvac, windows and all. If that's not enough, and you want to keep the engine normally aspirated, well then it's time to bore and stoke the thing. That opens a whole other can of worms.
A longer stroke combined with longer con rods would require a taller block, but a longer stroke combined with stock length rods and custom pistons with a different pin height would be an interesting combination indeed. Piston speeds go up, but some interesting dynamic changes take place in the intake tract, which, if properly exploited, result in an inordinate torque gain when compared to the displacement increase. The downside to that, as well as to extensive intake mods, is that it is not nearly as cost effective as forced induction. From a real world perspective, there is no more expedient path to *usable* power than supercharging. Turbos make more power and are much easier to package (especially in the 348), but they dampen the connection between the driver's right foot and the rear wheels. The F119 seems to be a very robust unit, so even just blowing a few PSI would make a huge difference in usable power without compromising durability. And if you want more, you could always lower the compression ratio and turn up the boost. The great thing about forced induction is that it does a lot of good things for performance, albeit at the cost of some additional weight and (especially in the case of turbos) elevated inducted air temps. But, on the plus side, positive manifold pressure overcomes intake restrictions quite handily. I've been down the path of putting a lot of effort into getting engines to breathe better more than once in my life, and it's always been disappointing in the end. But I've always been impressed with the improvements in real world drivability offered by supercharging. A well-executed blower setup is pretty much transparent to the driver, even on the track-- it just feels like engine displacement grew by ~40%... which it effectively did. And who wouldn't want the feel of 40% more displacement at any RPM and any throttle setting? As an aside, many years ago I was cogitating over a dual DCOE setup for a little four cylinder when a wise old drag racer for the neighboring shop wandered over. He listened to my grand (and expensive) plan and asked a little about the engine specs. He then passed along what I think is one of the wisest pieces of advice I've ever heard when it comes to modding engines-- he said, "That thing already breathes better than most engines, but it has no torque compared to most engines. If you want to improve the engine, you don't start by building on what it does well, you start by addressing its worst characteristic. It's a lot easier to improve something that's 40% efficient than it is to improve something that's 90% efficient, and the gains are more noticeable." Great guy-- I miss him terribly. Had a few NHRA World Records to his name, all on an absolute shoestring budget, simply because he understood engines. And his advice that day has been proven to me more times than I care to admit.
If anybody in interested, I might be selling my spare 355 motor this Spring. Heads have just been done with new guides, valve job and short block is perfect. Motor only had 6000 miles on it
Well, this is not entirely true though it could be argued that both are right since hp/torque are interrelated. End of the day however, highest horsepower wins as long as it is geared properly. (and why wouldn't it be).
So you have a quick-change transaxle in your 348/355 and drawers full of gears so that you can gear the car for any road course you happen to drive? Because most of us don't, and those of us who don't will benefit much more from a broad torque curve than we will from peak horsepower. But by all means keep thinking that way, in case I ever come up against you on a road course.
Don't need a drawer full of gears, F355 is already geared properly. You shift at peak torque I'll shift at peak HP and we'll see how long it takes you to get lapped. F355 makes peak torque at 6000rpm. Driven for max acceleration, shifting at redline the engine will always be well above this.
