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the F40 is undervalued

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by ross, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    looking around these days, you see that cars like the pista are valued at nearly $600k, the speciale is about 300k, the 288gto is at $2.5 mil, etc etc.

    in the stack and spectrum of ferrari icons, the F40 at around $1.2 mil average seems undervalued to me.

    yes, i am biased of course, but at the same time i am not keen to have to pay a higher insurance premium. so my thoughts are genuine.

    yes, you can show me that the run of F40's is 1315 or so, and thus not at the same level as the fewer made 288's or the f50's, but neither carry the same reputation or following of the F40.

    the F40 should be at $2 mil or higher. imo.

    discuss
     
  2. randkin

    randkin Formula Junior

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    I don’t hold myself out as a car valuation expert however my business sense has worked well for me over the years so here are my general thoughts and observations.

    Value is a funny thing, 1,315 is a pretty big run of cars. Also with that many cars if the price starts to go up say $100k there are 1314 folks (other than yourself) that might make their car available at say $1.3 mil. So to really drive value I think you would need a significant group both lusting for a F40 and also having the pocket book to satisfy that desire.

    My general feeling about the higher dollar classic and historic market is that it is kind of flat right now except for the Unicorns which seem to go for unheard of prices. The lower dollar cars say under $50k-$100k seems to be doing OK since most of the retiring baby boomers and afford one or two of those cars. But the higher dollar cars, lower volume model runs, seem to be flat or even down a bit over a couple of years ago.

    Also as the collector’s age, I think you may see some collections selling off so as not to leave their family/estate to deal with a collection, since the heirs don't share the same passion/interest. Not everyone who can afford that kind of car value wants an older classic, even a Ferrari, they may prefer a newer Fcar with more tech, more reliable, faster and they could have a couple. Most of the real collector cars are garage queens or at least special event cars especially Fcars where no one wants to put any miles on them.

    So in the near term I think the value of the F40 is equally likely to go down before it ultimately goes up which seems correct just due to inflation. So there is one opinion I could be wrong.:)

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  3. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS Karting

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    The thread title should have read - The F40 Was Over Produced.
     
  4. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    I am not an expert either but have been following Ferraris since I bough my first one in the early 80's. I remember thinking the same when in 1989 testarossas were changing hands at nearly €800k cars at the height of the bubble, and I couldn't believe I had collected mine new from the dealer a year earlier and had paid less than 20% of that. The older Ferrari's looked dirt cheap by comparison then.

    Well, I am sure you know the rest. So I would say what we are seeing today is a less extreme version of that, but the pricing of today's Pistas, SF90s etc will not push the older cars up. Just that the new cars will depreciate faster since Ferrari's has now got in on the bubble with its new pricing strategy once they have flooded the market with a new model every other month.

    Ironically, the relative over-production of the F40 (vs 500 originally stated) has made ownership possible for many people. Some great Ferraris being produced today will bargains of tomorrow if we are still allowed to drive them).
     
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  5. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,048
    From memory, you purchased yours a good few years ago now, so the easy question is if you did not currently own one, would you pay 2 million dollars here and now for one? if not then there is your answer as to why they have not reached that level.
     
  6. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 Veteran
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    f40 will be 5m one day
     
  7. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS Karting

    May 19, 2019
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    Tulips!

    There were only 378 Challenge Stradales made. Should I also be allowed to have such crazy dreams?
     
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  8. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Reputation helps with status and desirability but production numbers do make a big difference with values.

    The GTO has iconic status too, it is the First of the Supercar series and always will be, it's stunningly beautiful, and it is almost @ 5 times as rare as an F40.

    The F50 has F1 heritage, is the last manual gearbox Ferrari Supercar, and it is almost @ 4 times as rare as an F40.

    The free market always sets it's own level, and whilst many cars are often valued at a level that is seemingly unfair or illogical, if a change up or down is truly warranted, it'll happen.

    That's actually a very fair question and conclusion.
     
  9. fbrs2

    fbrs2 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2012
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    Not sure why anyone would want prices any higher, or even as high as they are now, anyway. Unless you need to sell up and not buy anything else again all it does is increase every aspect of ownership from purchase, through parts and insurance to taxes and for me at least, limit the enjoyment of actually driving them with any enthusiasm. Bring on the crash I say!
     
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  10. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,048
    I think it would also be fair to say that if Ferrari had restricted the number of F40s produced to similar runs as the GTO and F50, then the F40 would now be the most valuable of the 3.
     
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  11. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 Veteran
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    Thats a ridiculous statement. At end of day the cs is a 360 and they made thousands. I love my cs but to compare it to an f40 makes non sense. The f40 was a supercar - cs a special edition version of production car.


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  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    No.
    You cannot beat the legendary three letters "GTO". That's what you pay for as well.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  13. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 Veteran
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    Unfort gto looks like a 328. If they made a tenth of the f40s it wld be worth 10x.



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  14. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
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    Lots of things will be 5m one day as governments keep printing money. I’m sure the F40 will do fine, it’s an iconic car...
     
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  15. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    A few comments:

    The 288 is about a $2.5 mil car now, and the F50 is nearly at that price too. So if build number is such a factor, then why aren’t they 5x the price of an F40?

    You may think this is a facile and cheeky thing to say, but my guess is that they are not valued any higher than they are because they are not adored by the same number of people that adore the F40. As others have said; the 288 looks great, just like the 308 looked great....and the f50 tub-engine connection gives it an awful ride, but at least the top comes off. I would love to own either or both, but their prices don’t stack up logically in this discussion either- they should be higher too.

    Total number of 360cs produced is closer to 1280, and just as the F40 is now fungible WW, so will the cs be some day. So hiding behind the 378 delivered originally to the usa won’t get you far.

    There are not just Ferrari’s to take into account in the valuation stack.....
    A 1994 Toyota Supra brought $174k at Amelia. It had 11200 miles on it, and was in good shape, but part of a run of 34,275 total produced.

    Meanwhile, a very nice ‘92 512tr, (one of about 2200 total produced), albeit with 46 k miles just sold on BAT for about $150k.

    Square that circle.


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  16. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    It comes down to supply and demand. I don't really know what else to say. There are many factors that drive both sides of those with the demand side having more variation (too many to list here). Supply side won't change much unless lots of F40s get destroyed or locked up in a collection never to be sold.
     
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  17. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree that's entirely possible, although it's a hypothetical situation which is not the reality so we'll never know.

    Correct.

    True, plus you have to remember that the 288 GTO is an FIA Homologation run of cars built with Motorsport intent.

    It looks nothing like a 308 or a 328, the occasional dismissive statements that are made by some in that vein only speak to a lack of appreciation for design shapes, lines, stance and specification.

    A 288 GTO can be spotted from a great distance with it's unique wide & muscular shoulders, flying flag mirrors and quad driving lamps, in fact ot looks like no other Ferrari.

    288 GTOs are actually more like from $2.5m to $3.5m

    F50s are actually more like from $2m to 3m.

    I trade both fairly regularly.

    Again, the GTO looks nothing like a 308 or a 328.

    I think the bottom line is, whatever the reason is that F40s are not valued any higher than they are is determined by a healthy market ( which is a mix of Private Treaty sales, Auction sales, Dealer sales etc etc) and as we all know, for whatever reasons, the market speaks and sets it's own levels.

    Ignore high-production cars that suddenly bring huge values, I've watched the sports car market closely for @ 35 years and I can tell you those outlier results are not sustainable. The F40's value on the other hand has been pretty stable and sold for years, and anyone who owns a nice example has benefited from it's steady increase in value and overall market stability.
     
  18. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 Veteran
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    9 out of 10 people cant tell the difference between a 328 and 288. 10/10 can tell difference between f40 and 328.


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  19. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Joe, i like you, so it is with the utmost respect that i tell you that your first sentence above is self serving bs :)

    i am happy that the 288 and F50 are worth even more than i thought, but my point can still be valid in a way....why are these two cars not $5-7 mil? after all their production run is 5x times less than the f40, so according to all those who have offered up the build number as reasoning, i guess it doesnt really follow one for one...
     
  20. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #20 ross, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    the last comment i made doesnt seem to have elicited any reaction....

    a 94 toyota supra at $174k, vs a 92 512tr at $150......

    one, or both, of these is wrongly valued.
     
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  21. rmolke85

    rmolke85 Formula Junior

    Mar 11, 2013
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    #21 rmolke85, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    I think the car is misunderstood in the American market somewhat. It is kind of misleading just saying there are 1300 cars..... In other makes there are nuanced differences in cars sometimes and people put them into series. My view is the car should be broken out a bit further than just 1300 cars. Especially important because you can now import.

    -Plexi Window Cars
    -Non-Cat/Non-Adjustable
    -Mixed Cat and Adjustable's
    -USA cars

    They are all different.

    My favorite, FIA Group B homologation #293 spec with Plexi-WIndows like the racecar for the road it was intended to be. Yes I am biased but also glad they were not $2m.

    https://historicdb.fia.com/car/ferrari-f40-2936
     
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  22. rmolke85

    rmolke85 Formula Junior

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  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    That's simply incorrect within the car community, and it's like saying people cant tell the difference between an F40 and an F50, sure these cars being compared have a passing resemblance, but they are instantly recognizable fir what they have.

    I don't think my sentence is self-serving BS at all, but a thread started by F40 owner for the purpose of trying to talk up values might be!

    We've seen this before, it doesn't work.

    Just to be clear, I could give a Flying F40 what current values are, values can go up, down, or sideways, that said I have every confidence the market gets it right for most iconic Supercars.

    Perhaps you missed my comment above:
    "Ignore high-production cars that suddenly bring huge values, I've watched the sports car market closely for @ 35 years and I can tell you those outlier results are not sustainable. The F40's value on the other hand has been pretty stable and sold for years, and anyone who owns a nice example has benefited from it's steady increase in value and overall market stability."

    211 cars.

    DK are good guys, but they should have done the research on this one, they specialize in F40s so you;d think they know this by heart..
     
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  24. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    i actually dont want the the f40 to get higher in value at the moment - it would just cost me more to insure.
    but i will concede that if it did rise, i would benefit in the end.
    but at the same time, i think virtually every ferrari guy will disagree with your statement that the 288 has nothing to do with the 308..... :)
     
  25. Natkingcolebasket69

    BANNED

    U are right!


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