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the F40 is undervalued

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by ross, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    The low mileage USA F40 coming to auction will establish this one way or another, stay tuned and we'll find out.

    That market difference is now becoming understood.

    Per your kindly verified data, just 82 F40s were originally built with Lexan sliding windows and hollow red-painted interior door panels (LM specification lightweight doors), a materially different and desirable sporting appointment, this being the original F40 specification as launched by Enzo Ferrari himself in 1987, if you want a rare road-going F40, the Lexan sliding windows cars are the ones to have.
     
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  3. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
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    Wonder if the Lexan windows are the bullet-proof ones? :eek::D
     
  4. Warren Brown

    Warren Brown Karting

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  5. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
    297
    The market has moved exponentially over the last couple of years, I sold a fabulous F40 Chassis number 87362 which I had owned for nearly 20 years, 1200 miles and 2 owners !00 % original. The car has doubled in value since then, 2017 the sale was a 7 figure number number then. I would love to know if anyone on here owns her.. all the series of Ferrari Super cars made significant gains... Mileage, originality, owners.. the same applies today as it always has..
    The main problem is supply... there are very few genuine cars for sale and a huge amount of interest.. This will only get worse will inflation running at 8 %.
     
  6. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    Dec 22, 2006
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    Just drove mine 200km in the South West of France.

    I love to look at it with good friends and a glass of wine in my garage but they were built to be driven. Period!


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  8. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

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    Didn't Tom Hartley Jnr sell it not so long ago?
     
  9. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
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    Yes Tom Hartley Jnr sold it in 2017/18 , it would be nice to know where she resides now.
     
  10. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    Marcel will no doubt confirm, but after the initial batch of cars all had the lightweight Lexan doors, it then became an option over the wind up window version, but not many owners took up the option going forward. A bit like manual 575s etc it was seen as a lesser spec, not optioned as a result, so numbers were low, which over time then actually becomes a desirable factor.

    Numerous examples have had those doors retro fitted though, the wind up window version is structurally different, so it is not just a case of taking off the door cards and swap out the glass for lexan.
     
  11. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    the things that bother me about the lexan side windows is that from the ones i have seen, is that the lexan gets scraped and scratched in the process of use and then becomes difficult to see through, then its difficult to reach through and pay a toll or whatever, and the safety aspect.
     
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  13. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    if this sale acts as a release for owners to actually drive these cars, despite the higher values, the world will be better for it.
    i am doing my part! :)
     
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  14. alps

    alps Rookie

    Nov 17, 2012
    19
    Zurich
    Don't see how it acts as a release. For some owners (like me) who drive their cars this is getting crazy. My car is insured for half what the "market" says it's now worth. I could spend more time with my insurance broker than actually driving the car. Do owner/drivers really feel more comfortable today knowing the potential financial impact of a fender bender is 2x what it was last week?

    TBF this is a first world problem, I bought the car as a driver and I love it. But I do pay attention to values. I am happy that there are buyers out there at these prices. But as an owner who puts 2k km on the car each year, this recent spike is making me less comfortable about driving and enjoying the car. The car is getting closer to parking in some temperature/humidity controlled safe storage location.
     
  15. FCD

    FCD Karting

    Nov 27, 2011
    146
    Germany

    The only solution is two F40s! One to collect and one to drive.
     

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  16. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    in the last year, i have had to raise the insurance coverage by $500k. and will now likely have to raise it by another $800k, but each addtl $100k is = 600/yr with hagerty. so i guess i can handle it.
    frankly i think this may be the beginning of the change in the f40 valuations - i have often said that nobody really cares what the mileage is on a 275gtb, so why should people care what the mileage is on an f40 as long as everything else is correct. low mileage only really indicates low mileage - it is no guarantee of condition, maintenance, or much of anything else.
     
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  17. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    But even the sellers here are quick to say "low miles" or "very low miles" which presumably draws interest and justifies a premium all other things considered. The problem is in the approach itself. Collecting for value is opposite of driving for enjoyment with Ferrari. One usually has an inverse effect on the other.
     
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  18. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    of course, you are correct that this has been the case for ferraris for a while, especially in the usa.
    and for a brand new model, i can see some of the validity of that as a selling point.
    however, for a 35 year old car, that is verging on the ridiculous.
    as i said, nobody cares about the miles on a 275gtb, so maybe its also an age thing.
     
  19. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Ridiculous maybe but check post 378 for a nice "low mileage'" example. Just the way it is. All things equal the lower mileage offering is usually preferred unless its a race car or other provenance.
     
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  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Just always re-insure for current value, forget about it and enjoy driving, there are people out driving their 250 GTOs over the weekend, value is relative.

    True.

    True again, but a well-cared for 275 GTB with 4,000 original miles is worth more to some people, and those people will always represent a significant segment of the market.
     
  21. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    condition and provenance are everything
     
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  22. Juan-Manuel Fantango

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  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #395 joe sackey, Jan 17, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
    Most of us agree that mileage shouldn't matter so much, however in Ferrari-land, the reality is mileage does in fact matter, especially with all the Ferrari Supercars 288 GTO > F40 > F50 > Enzo > LaFerrari (vintage cars can often be a different story). GTOs are even older than F40s as they are approaching 40 years, and ditto F40s, F50s etc mileage does matter.

    Low miles is worth more to some people, and those people do represent a significant segment of the market, so as others have pointed out, it matters, perhaps not to an individual intent on just enjoying their car who is not a seller, but should they become a seller, they will quickly realize, mileage matters. That much is indisputable, and established market results for all the Ferrari Supercars including F40s over decades to this day speaks for themselves.

    Acknowledging this doesn't mean anyone is disputing that F40s were meant to be driven as God & Enzo intended, perhaps FCD has the right idea in recognition of this obvious phenomenon, get one to stock and one to rock, as my kids might say!

    Mileage by itself is not all that matters, obviously, it's just a part of the picture, some of my evaluating questions might be:

    Mileage?
    Provenance, was it built for a VIP owner?
    How many owners?
    Original paint?
    Original interior?
    Specification, for example, Prototype, or Lexan sliding windows?
    Overall cosmetic condition of body & wheels?
    Overall condition of all functioning components?
    Brakes, turbos or any other components modified?
    Bell-housing relined?
    Suspension mounting point recalls performed?
    When were the fuel bladders, cam-belts and tires last changed?
    Classiche Certified?
    Service history complete from new with stamps in the warranty book?
    Any deferred maintenance currently required?

    All of these questions, and more besides, when answered should combine to determine true value to many buyers.
     
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  24. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
    297
    I think Joe has hit the nail on the head... all starting discussions on my F40, GTO and F50 have always started with Mileage.. From a collectors point, if we could buy a new F40 we would, its just there are none around. Everyone wants as new as they can find.. less wear on the interior, less stone chips and paint work done, less original parts changed out, I'm not saying all low mileage cars are like this.. but the general expectation is if the mileage is low and all the other points Joe mentioned are correct, then the above is true.
    Every buyer is different. so is everyones budget, so the market gives a spectrum of price points for everyone's participation.
     
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  25. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    There were simply too many F40s produced for buyers to have to accept a more storied car over one they would really want that ticks all the boxes Joe has listed, as many of the 1300 plus do still tick all those boxes. Its different for the vintage cars as far less were made and far more of them were used as intended in period, so the pool of the best of them is far less, so buyers have to accept that some of those boxes cannot be ticked if they really want to own an example.

    The thing with F40s is they were a few hundred thousand new, a million used, so most of them at the time were stashed away unlike the cars that came before them. Like any rising market the best of the best will bring up the rest but not by the same level, but those lower down will be the first and hardest hit when the music stops.

    For those that have an F40 then simply enjoy it in the moment, as the only way to release that profit will be to sell it, but then you no longer own the thing you love and if they keep increasing in value you may never then own another.
     
  26. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    you guys realize that the recent mecum sale negates a lot of what you just posited right?

    or, put another way.....in order for that sale to not undermine your argument, the very next sub 1000 mile usa car will have to sell for $3.8 mil..... do you think that is going to happen?
     
  27. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
    297
    I would say you will be could be there... if it ticks every box. a sub 1k all original lexon window car, total undisputed history , 1 or 2 owners, out of the box.. then yes
    3.5 million USD is where that car could be..
     
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  28. FCD

    FCD Karting

    Nov 27, 2011
    146
    Germany
    A few km make every car something special and of course this is also reflected in the value. What do you think my collector F40 #85768, 1st owner, with 3,900 km is currently worth and what is my Fahr F40 #80613, 3rd owner, with 68,000 km worth. Technically and optically, both vehicles are perfect.
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