The Great Maserarti Bi Turbo !!!!!!!!!!

I think you're beginning to get an idea of some of the issues from some of the other posts on here.

You're problem is that you're making sweeping generalizations based upon mistaken information. In short you're completely ignorant on this issue. Most people are.

The idea that these cars can't be made to run well and reliably (within the bounds of any Italian car of that era) is absurd. I'm a backyard amateur mechanic and I was able to get the job done.

Bdelp has listed a number of issues that presents most of the story for the first couple of years and he's correct about a number of them. Performance was never an issue except for a few cars in 1986 that came with a terribly configured 3 speed automatic and a different carb.

They were always time consuming to work on but way too many people tried to just drive them like appliances. They usually skipped the F R E E 1,000 mile head re-torque which was a very big labour job. That was a very big mistake. People also ignored cam belts too. Gee, does this issue ever pop up for Ferrari's in the tech section here?

The biggest problem already mentioned by Bdelp was the emissions system. DeTomaso absolutely screwed the pooch on that one. The design was wrong and quite a number of the materials were shoddy. Unfortunately Qvale and his crew's hands were tied by regulations. They knew WHAT was wrong in a number of cases but they couldn't change things very much. I worked a LOT directly with them on my car in SF and eventually I had to to depart from the stock equipment path. Once I did that and fixed the emissions system the car was transformed and has been great ever since. That was not an option for most people so many cars were abandoned very early. A service shop was pretty much stuck too if they wanted to remain legal.

You certainly couldn't service them like a Toyota and I don't think most owners understood that or were willing to tolerate Ferrari like service issues and expenses in a $25K car.

It doesn't take much for a car a cars reputation to suffer and then for people to bail on them. Then they languish and deteriorate. A Ferrari not maintained is no different. A Mondial coupe or 400I (there are other examples) that's been left to languish for many years reaches the point where the value of the car just doesn't warrant the cost of proper maintenance. Then it either rots or gets shoddy repairs and you end up with some pretty ugly examples out there.

I'd guess most of the Biturbos in the US fall into that category.

I recently heard an interview Frank Mandarano did with their chief engineer (Casserini) at that time about the Biturbo's development and it's quite a story. They didn't want to go with a pressurized carb but DeTomaso insisted. They wanted it fuel injected from the beginning. The engine actually started out as a NA project and they had quite a few problems making the carb work. Some contend they never did. Certainly not with an effective emissions system on it. But my carb setup works very nicely and has for many years. It's totally fuss free compared to my 4 and 6 Weber setups.

Once you put the water cooled turbos on the car and made some other changes that issue went away.

It's a delightful engine to drive in a unique little car with lots of that Italian personality. It's also very comfortable.

My AC finally gave up the ghost last year and I now have a rebuilt compressor to put in there. That's not such a bad record in my book. Was it up to the standards of an american AC system? No way but it wasn't god awfull either. It was not appliance like. In thast respect I think a lot of new-to-Italian-cars type owners expected a hell of lot more than DeTomaso was ever going to deliver. So how many Ferrar's and Lamborghini's from that era have highly effective, easy to repair and relaible AC systems? I see a lot of open wide open windows on hot concours days.

The big difference is I persevered and ended up with 25+ years of a fun car that's gone on all sorts of long trips through the desert, out on the track and everywhere else. A lot of car nuts on this website have very similar long term ownership stories about cars. So this story is not that unique.

Most people simply gave up.

Bob S.

 

Bob S:

There is a lot of truth there in what you say...

I actually liked the later model cars. And, I wished I had one of the few 5 speed manual convertibles which, if I remember correctly, came with Fuel Injection also.

But, I always heard a rumor (it's a rumor which is why I don't repeat it AND it may not be true) that Qvale made a deal with Detomaso on the price they wanted (low) but Detomaso said OK but all the warranty work must be paid by Qvale.

Therefore, there was little incentive for Detomaso to make "good" cars because it was Qvale's problem. If that was true, it explains a lot. It may also explain your story about using carburation instead of Fuel Injection as FI was more expensive. They wanted to keep the car within 5 to 7 grand of a 3 series and similar to the Jag XJS in price.

I would agree that the car is comfortable and that the problems were sometimes created by the owners who simply didn't care about them. Again, I blame the marketing. These were sold like they were BMW 3 series and there was no way the car could live up to BMW's reliability. I had customers with 3 year old cars that already had 3 owners. Resale values made them very attractive for what they were --- until you needed to fix them.

Also, poorly trained mechanics screwed them up. If there was one organization that I cannot blame, it was MIE. They did a good job of helping keep them on the road with parts and advice. Quattroportes too (which I really, really like). If I remember correctly, I also got some parts from GT Car parts for them (who are also great).

In the end, it really doesn't matter. Maserati's brand was so badly damaged in the first 3 years, it could never recover. It was the perfect storm.

I love this brand so much that when Ferrari took it over, I immediately bought a Cambiocorsa Spider which I still own today. It's basically bullet proof. Luckly, the stigma of the 80's have pretty much worn off.

BTW: A lot of things we complain about Maserati's of the 80's were also very common in 80's Ferrari's. Maserati's were worse, but we tend to excuse Ferrari because it was what "Enzo wanted".

 

Originally Posted by bdelp
The car had several weak spots. Unfortunately, most of them were expensive and even more unfortunately, when some of these problems were solved in later cars, it was too late. The reputation was so bad that even the good cars were tainted.

The early turbo cars blew their turbos all too often. Replacing them was a pain and expensive. This was fixed later with better bearings and better lubrication. Unfortunately, the word was out that the turbos were a problem.

The fusebox melted and shorted too easily. I don't think the engineers fully appreciated that people in America run their AC all the time or that the fans would draw such a large amount of current. The result -- melted fuseboxes (to be fair, Ferrari's of the same period had similar problems).

The water pump bearings wore out early. Unfortunately the pump was run by the timing belt so if the pump seized, the timing belt would fail. The tensioner bearing of the timing belt wasn't much better.

The car had a real problem with emissions. The carb was difficult to adjust for emissions with airbox cover on top. Often, the readings would change radically when reinstalling the airbox. Too much unburnt fuel ruined the catalytic convertors from overheating. A lot of them I saw had the convertors hollowed out instead of replacing them. Getting the car to pass emmisions was often a near kiss of death.

I would say also that the dealers were the problem. There were not enough properly trained mechanics to take care of all the problems. Waiting was too long and often the problems were not really fixed. The attitude was to get the cars out of the bays because more were coming in.

There was also a performance issue (or lack of it) for a "Maserati". Almost all of the convertibles came with a slushbox automatic whose shift points really didn't match the turbo's power band. The marketing department thought they would be competing with the Jag convertible and all Jags came with Autos. This was a big mistake as Maserati owners and Jag owners are completely different in their desires.

The ignition was really not a big deal. It was the fuse box that caused almost all of the electrical problems. Later fuse boxes were made of better materials as the problem really was with almost every car made in the first couple of years. Replacing them with a new but poorly engineered fusebox was just like putting a new time bomb in the car.

The climate control and A/C were also difficult to service. Many would just not fix it if it went out due to the cost.

So, the problems were from poor engineering, poor quality control, poor dealer service, rapid depreciation causing owners to delay maintenance and repair, and poor marketing of the car. Add it all together and you get a bad reputation. So bad that when Ferrari took over Maserati, it expressly said the Bi-Turbo would not be serviced at Ferrari/ Maserati dealers.

I don't mean to denegrate any Bi-Turbo owners who may love their cars but as an owner of a shop that fixed many of them for 10 years, I only speak the truth. And, the latter models like the 430 and 228 with fuel injection were pretty good. I had one customer with a convertible that had it from new for many years and never had a thing go wrong with it. Unfortunately, they sold it for just a few thousand (to my lead mechanic -- no one else would even make an offer) as the reputation was so trashed by then. That car got into a minor rear ender and the insurance company totaled it. Such was the fate of many a Bi-Turbo. They weren't worth fixing.

It seemed like with the later models, they did try hard to fix the problems. It was just too late.



Excellent post bdelp.

best regards,

MS

 

Bob congratulatios on sorting your own car out: two thumbs up.

That however is not the issue here. As transpired from all my interviews with Maserati old timers (some of whom left Maserati because they could not stand the man, his major flaw and there were many is that he never wanted to sort out a new model never wanted to iron out the final issues that would make it reliable, he always moved on too fast to the next project.

Yes he saved maserati but these cars were NOT in any way shape or form to the standards of the Grand Touring cars of the past. These relaibility issues were never properly addressed for the reasons bdelp eloquently explained.

Oh and Joe, dear Joe, please for the umpteenth time it was not Citroën who dumped Maserati. It was Michelin owner of Citroën and hence Maserati who sold Citroën to Peugeot and it was Peugeot management who decided to close the doors in May of 1975.

best regards,

Marc

 

Mark, I know you're a lover of the old GT cars as am I but I have to tell you that as a 25+ year owner of both the Biturbo was such a better "real world" car in so many respects. It was quicker, more nimble and a lot more comfortable. No it wasn't built as well as it should have been. Even the last of that series the late Ghibl II cars were still not built as well as their competitors and by that time DeTomaso was long gone. It certainly wasn't as exotic or beautiful to look at but let's be realistic here. The old GT cars had tons of issues too. Today some of them are elevated to an object of art status, over restored and hardly driven. I drove my Bora a lot. I drove my Biturbo a lot too. I pretty much know what all the issues are.

I think the "actual nature" of the car is very much the issue. If Maserati NA and DeTomaso hadn't screwed up the first two years of the Biturbo introduction so badly I think this would have turned out somewhat different. That emissions system was just slapped on there with very little engineering. The same was true on my Bora. It was just as horrific. Khamsins and QPIII's were terrible as well. Webers, air pumps and thermal reactors/Catalytic converters don't mix very well. Add in a manual choke and OMG!

But the Biturbo was never going to to be exact competitors for BMW and Mercedes on all levels. Maserati still isn't even close on that front. So a lot buyers were going to ultimately be pissed off because they were never going to be good appliances.
They were always going to to be exotic and fussy. Today;' Maserati is a lot better in that regard. Paddle shifting short clutch life not withstanding.

DeTomaso expected the owners to sort the crap out. SOB! The story Bdelp alludes to regarding warranty payment may be true? I know there was a lot of carping in SF about not getting paid for warranty claims. Maybe George Garbut can fill in the blanks. In any event, it did not go well. I wouldn't characterize it so much as a cheap product as an unfinished one though it certainly wasn't as substantial a product as the old GT cars. I personally think they got much better results for the cost than was accomplished with old GT cars. Let's not over glorify the old GT cars. They were built like tanks which was good but it also made them very heavy. The fit and finish wasn't all that great and didn't hold up very well at all. IMHO Ferrari and Lamborghini were even worse in that respect.

The QPIII interior was probably their zenith at that time. Rugged it wasn't but comfortable and beautiful it certainly was.

The new V8 NA coupe was light years better in build quality. I just find it to be a boring car to drive. That car is now as ancient when compared to current cars as the Biturbo and GT cars were when compared to the V8 Coupe when it first came out.

Things are moving very fast these days.

I was offered a buyback by Qvale of my Biturbo and a discount on a new XJS. But I didn't like how that car drove. I found this new little pocket rocket with an exquisite interior very seductive. So I didn't give up.

Bob S.

 

It's funny, I have the very first series with the carb-in-a-box and primative engine controls as well one of the last (Ghibli Open Cup) which was a 2L 24 valve with dual engine ECUs (same as the F40) and that one makes a lot of HP. But I prefer the throttle response of the the earlier one with the carb. Of course it makes less HP and driveability isn't as good though it really isn't an issue now that the cats are gone ... That Weber Marelli FI just isn't as much fun to drive.

About the stigma, it seems that Coupe and QPV owners certainly gripe a lot about resale and there's always a ton of them on Ebay. I fear the same fate awaits these cars. Almost everyone treats cars like appliances now because for the most part they've gotten so reliable when compared to the past. Even Maserati!

Bob S.

 

I have no issue with anything you write in your last post Bob, certainly the factory was equally bad at handling the US bumper design and emissions for the Khamsin as they were at handling the US biturbo issues discussed in this thread. Oh and a Khamsin is a lot more practical than a Bora and can be used in heavy traffic without difficulties.

best regards,

Marc

 

Bob,
yes, the ol`cars had their issues too! But they are much more valuable today and so most of this gremlins had been sorted out.

Spare parts for Biturbos are expensive too. But the car is worth -almost!- nothing. From the economical side of life its a waste of time to spend any cash on those cars.

The market speaks!!

Maserati had not only a quality-problem - the company also suffered an image problem for 15 years! And this was caused by the Biturbo.

We have to thank the FIAT-/Ferrari-connection that the company is now saved since 1999!

Ciao!
Walter

 

It's also an economic waste of time to spend huge sums on women Walter. But we do!

If you enjoy the car it's fine. I don't spend guge sums on my Biturbo because I never let it fall apart. But so many are as you say beyond hope.

Maserati was in deep trouble well before the Biturbo. It's Trident was very dull. The bungled early years of Biturbo certainly didn't help. Nor did DeTomaso's persona. They did never the less produce some interesting cars in the 1990's.

The bugs have been worked out to an acceptable extent on all of these cars but it's never a completed task. I don't hink we need to go into a review of the design flaws on either the old GT cars or the Biturbos.

We might exceed this websites bandwidth! ;>)

Bob S.

 

always welcome your first hand experience. these threads had gained measurably from your input. i am sure i can say thanks from all of us. did you get your open cup back on the road. i think the last time we spoke was 04 at Pocono. you had an engine failure. i still am under the delusion that i may get some of the non runners back on the road. so i am holding on until extra dollars are available

 

Hi Mitchel.

Yup. That was track debris (a smashed up Viper) hitting one of my turbos and punching a hole in the housing. Just fricken' lucky I guess??? It's been back on the track and off again a couple of times now. Had a very light shunt up at the Glen and it's in the paint shop as we speak. I saw it yesterday and they're coming along great. I decided on a very nice full repaint of the car to stock Cup series configuration. It will be ALL ONE SHADE of yellow now! ;>) I have a complete new set of decals from the original race series to put back on too. Should be sharp looking with a fresh engine and ready to go this fall or maybe early next spring. Lots of upgrades and improvements made to this car as well.

Bob S.

 

We shall be looking for your new thread, Bob.

Ciao,
George

 

Had a 86 Biturbo Spyder Zagato, silver with blue top with only 40'000KM, although its design is quite nice, stands out and luxurious, the car was a mess electrically...

- Cutting Cost by Tomaso meant cheaper, lower quality switches, relays and fuse boxes from Japan I think... Its plastic with heat would crack and lots of shorts would prevail... Mine shutted off in the middle of roads for no reasons and a pain to start...

- The chassis design of the car was poorly engineered which meant handling was horrible, actually dangerous, unforgiving, with such an "over-powered" bi-turbo engine. It was said to be quite dangerous for the spyder with no roll bars and especially if you pushed it too hard, you would loose control fast, unrecoverable and tumble. Brakes were also horrible and inappropriate for such a car...

- At the end the only thing that worked well was its engine, never had a problem with it nor its turbos...

Sold it for $10K due to the permanent shorts and shutting offs...

Cheers
Carlo

 

Fun view on the Biturbo see at 42nd second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkO8y3AxRps

 

unbeatable!!!!

It tells it all!

Ciao!
Walter

 

Oh yes the Jeremy Clark dumpster shtick. He's an affront himself to a lot of people.

Walter, did you catch the episode where he stupidly (he seems to specialize in that) ruins one of your beloved Meraks?

The best though, was when he ran a Volvo into a cement abutment and really hurt himself badly.

I liked that one. ;>)

 

I love the Merak - but its a "Mass-Maserati" and therefor I forgive Mr. Clark. He made me laugh so often - its worth that Merak and for sure the notorious Biturbo-something he scrapped!

Ciao!
Walter

 

NO, he ruined a couple of good cars on that one episode with the Merak. The Biturbo he crushed was already a rusted hulk but someone might have gotten a few parts from it.
Then again maybe it WAS an David Askew reject anyway.

What they should have done is have a really good dummy look-a-like of him sitting in the Biturbo when the dumpster hit with lots of lead in footage of him really sitting in it and then have him casually walk into the picture after the crush.

I could get behind that even it would be a bit of a dissapointiment ...

 

Marc,
Be it Citroen or Peugeot serious damage was done to Maserati from the sale in 1968 of Maserati by the Orsi Family to Citroen. While I personally don't mind their use but the infestation of Citroen's Vulcan Blood really did damage Maserati that is still felt today in the values of cars from that era that are contain Citroen Hydraulics.

Joe

 

Joe:

A few facts.

-The Orsis were becoming bankrupt and had to sell or close. fact.

-The only other potential buyer was de Tomaso. In 68 he had not one lire to offer. Fact.

-The purchase by Citroën, decided by Pierre Bercot therefore saved Maserati. Fact.

-Thanks to Citroën mangement quality vastly improved, the way the factory was run improved enormously: it was chaos before as my interviews have documented exhaustively. Fact.

-The hydraulics as I have said before were not at all imposed by Citroën but asked by chief engineer Giulio Alfieri who was himself a great believer in Citroën technology. Fact.

-His reasoning was very simple drive a daytona 5 minutes in city traffic then drive a Khamsin: you want to shoot the daytona with your gun as it is so horribly unpleasant in that situation whereas a 50 kilo woman can cross NYC or Paris ar rush hour in complete ease. Fact.

-Hydraulics are perfectly reliable. In a total of about 15, 20 years spent in France and a total of 31 years spent in Europe I have never seen a Citroën break down due to hydraulics. It is when people use the cars too little less than twice a month that problems do develop but they are cars not mausoleum garage decoration. fact.

-Any misperception about hydraulics leading to reluctance to buy is born of ignorance and potential buyers are nowadays more educated. fact. It is those who persist in repeating old wrong statements that hamper what we all want: to see our cars become more understood, more enjoyed and to see more enlightened owners join the ranks.

-The damage was done in most part by the energy crisis which was an economic tsunami for Maserati and Citroën and also to a lesser extent by the strikes in Italy at the time. Fact.

By the way how is your Khamsin restoration going?

best regards,

Marc

 

I don't like French cars, they're too French..lol

 

How about some pics for this thread...

Bought new in 90, 28k miles now. No electrical issues at all, although I do now have a recent issue with the drivers power window. Only issues have been rear engine seal and differential seal due to not enough use. Waterpump has also been replaced.

Yes, alot of rats out there but there are some nice ones. Turbos still run like day 1. These cars need regular service/maintenance, maybe that is why there have been so many problems. Most people just want to get in and go, this is not that type of car. Used as a 3rd or 4th car like this has been obviously makes all the difference. You want an everyday driver...buy a Bimmer.
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I do have a soft spot for them..but lets call a spade a spade. It was a terrible car. People have made improvements to them to make them much better, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are discussing the car as it was built.

It always makes the top 10 of worst cars ever and for very good reason. Whether or not the fan boys want to believe the bad press or not, is up to them. But it was and in most cases still is one of the worst cars ever to hit the high end market, other then the rebadged Dodge daytona Maserati ( but even it was a better car).

 

I still Think the Biturbos are great Cars!Fast,Nimble-Fun to drive.I have had several Maseratis
but also 1 430-94 and a 424.V-93.They are stable at speed,and well handling!Brakes can be imporoved.Try better brake pads from Performance Friction or Carbotech.
Parts can be a bit of a nightmare,but there are some good sources out there.
I have recently helped to sell a Ghibli-93.a GhibliGT,and also a wery nice 430.4V.I have driven several different Biturbos including Ghibli Cup cars.

Look up "Maseratisti Svezia Swedish Maserati Forum" on FB.My Maserati forum.

Bob S!,You are the Man!Regards Patrik

 

They were generally available from 1984 through 1999 in various models with a lot of variations and improvements. So are you ascribing the adjective "terrible" to the entire series or a specific subset?

Bob S.