The million dollar Question: TDF vs CGT vs Senna

TdF for me (whenever I win the lottery )
I have no actual experience of driving a TdF but it seems to be a real beast that can occasionnally disguise itself as a road car - so a very interesting personnality.
I would rate the Senna lowest, it's certainly amazing as a track car but then a real track car is better.

 

Well this is a Ferrari site but still the tdF is the choice I would go with. Overall the most pleasing car owning experience to; compared with the other two choices mentioned.
For sheer usable entertainment a rebuilt 959 would be a bold choice to. Of course you would be constantly asked if the car is a real 959 or not...

 

I found a matching TDF to my Speciale, and I'm going all in . So I am biased but my choice would be the TDF!

 

Fun hypothetical, curious to see what everyone chooses as these are quite different cars at a similar price point

CGT likely to increase or hold value the best out of the three would be my uneducated guess given its pedigree, story of development, and place in Porsche's history if it matters to you. Beautiful styling in my eyes inside and out. If you need the handshaker there's your choice

Senna: Mac issues are offputting to me personally from the reports I've seen and heard (not that other manufacturers are immune), but I love the name and purpose of the car. It looks like nothing else on the road by a fair margin that's for sure

I chose tdf, because I just had to have the car. That's how I knew it was the one for me when being 5000% sure I wanted to spend this much money on a car, this car. That being said, 812VS is coming and that could impact values/"be the better car" subjectively. For me the tdf was Ferrari's first "Icona" unofficially with such awesome retro styling at some angles/it's silhouette, being the front engine long nose V12, and with the rear fender louvers. I adore the F12 over the 812, so depending on your stance that might change the appeal of the tdf for you for what it's worth

At this level personally I think you just have to go with what matters most to you and what tugs at your heartstrings, I could see a valid argument for any of the three

 

funny I did the same. Congrats

 

Easily the Senna if you intend to track it a lot. If mainly road use, then not (as it will be beaten by 765LT anywhere except a high downforce circuit).

 

I've owned 2 TDF's and still holding one of them. I've driven a combined ~ 3000 miles and it's been pure adrenaline! This car gives you thrills if you dare push it! If I could go back in time and chose again I would make the same choices without question. I would not hesitate to buy a 3rd TDF if the spec was exactly what I am looking for.

 

Since you already have a V8 TT car and you had a CGT, then i'd say give the TDF a try.

If you had not had a CGT, then it would be my choice.

(i have only driven the CGT, F40 and TDF.).

I do like the Senna BUT it most of the cars ordered have terrible specs, and if you dont plan on tracking a lot, i feel like you would not enjoy it as much as a TDF.

 

Me too. I think they make a great pair. Congrats to you both.

 

I love and own a TdF. So that’s my choice.

In this choice of 3, there is also the axis of how much “analog” you want. CGT from the 2000s still has the manual transmission experience. So it feels more analog than the TDF from 2016-2017 in this manner.

At the same time, other than driving fairly simple roads, I would prefer to have paddles in the TdF than manual. There is so much power and attention needed to extract all power in challenging roads. It’s the same reason why you wouldn’t put a stick in a Challenge or any race car. I wouldn’t want to drive the CGT with a stick in a grip challenging situation that was prolonged over time. I think that is the advantage of the TDF with its paddles. With CGT’s stock setup, the manual shifting would take some performance away in canyon bombing driving. So for road course fun, I would go for the TDF.

If the analog manual transmission element is important and a modern Ferrari is important, then the last that came out of the factory was the 599 with a manual transmission. I believe there were 18 of them made. So could be an interesting search.

It always comes down to the driving experience you want. Last week, I drove my friend’s 550 manual and really loved the manual component of it. But it’s not close to the “performance level” of the mid and front engine follow ons. But when I was driving it, I had so much fun shifting, hearing, feeling, and with good enough performance that I didn’t get care.

My guess is that if you love the driving experience the CGT or TDF are in the zone. The Senna is great for a “warp drive without feel in a weird looking spaceship” experience as I was told.

That owner bought a Senna and is now selling it. They just said it was a fantastic machine. They never could deal with the awkwardness of the design publicly so they only drove it on the track or showed the car. So they are selling the car now.

This “analog” focus of mine could be that I am in mid 50s, drove stick when I was young, and my first F car was a 360 stick 20 years ago. But shifting that 550 while hearing that exhaust while feeling the road made me feel like when I bought the 360: big smile.

I like your question a lot!

 

Of those three I would go TDF.

CGT is for those looking for an older classic experience. It's a cool sounding fun car but not for me. A buddy of mine just picked one up actually and had it on a drive with our a group a couple of weeks ago. Fun to drive behind.

The Senna to me is a different kind of focus and not really for me either. It's kinda ugly and unwieldy. I have quite a bit of experience spending time around them as I know a guy that has one who has put on quite a few miles (local people will know who I'm talking about).

 

I'm in the unique position where I have owned all three cars you mentioned. I sold the Senna but I still have the TDF and the CGT.

If I were to rank them in terms of specialness, driving experience, pedigree, etc, I would rank the CGT first, TDF second and the Senna a distant third. I didn't have the Senna for very long though, sold it within 2 months of delivery.

 

LOL I drove mine daily for a year in 1999 and I got the question almost every day!!


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I have first hand experience of the CGT and TDF, never drove the Senna.
In my opinion the car to keep is the CGT. It is a very special experience, a more unique car than the rarer 918. It has one of the all time great engines with a sound that only my old Lexus LFA could match , a nice manual gearbox and you can drive it with the top off without losing rigidity like most convertible cars. It is Porsche’s interpretation of a F50. On the downside, the clutch is diabolical in traffic, changing it is super expensive, the ground clearance is zero (I had RUF’s lifting system fitted which is awesome if expensive) and the handling has this razor sharp limit that once you exceed you will definitely remember for a long time.

The TDF is definitely a superior driving experience from a handling standpoint, the V12 is fantastic, the dual clutch gearbox a doddle and I actually like the looks (although I think the CGT ages better).It is also rarer than a CGT and will hold its value just as well if not better. I loved mine, but I somehow feel that the 812 VS will be made on a similar pattern with improvements in every area, so it will supersede the TDF, while the CGT was not superseded by the 918 in my opinion (very different cars, both great)

Everybody tells me the Senna is a dream to drive. I guess the question is whether you can live with the looks (I just can’t) and the reliability issues. I love McLaren cars (especially the P1), but they have not yet established themselves in that top tier of supercars in my opinion. I need to see better exterior design, more charismatic engines, better secondhand values and fewer reliability issues for that to happen


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It's likely 812VS supersdes the tdf according to logic, but let's wait and see. Looks wise very curious. IMO Pista did not supersede the Speciale, it's just my personal subjective opinion. Newer not always better...

 

I would say that the answer really depends on your objectives (looks, driving experience, investment potential etc). Being fortunate to own these three cars for some time, some thoughts below and I will focus mainly on the driving experience as that remains my focus with these cars.

Firstly, as might be expected, the front-engined tdf drives quite differently to the CGT and Senna which are mid-engined.

CGT is very much a precision driving tool with a steep and challenging learning curve. With the post-2013 Michelin SS tyres, it is precise and predictable contrary to its earlier reputation, but like analogue supercars of its time, requires quick and accurate inputs, particularly at the 10/10ths. As a package, CGT has all the components of a great driving car in balance: power, chassis poise, grip, steering feedback which all come together to make every spirited drive a memorable one. Every drive is a reminder of why 1000hp is not necessarily relevant for a sublime experience behind the wheel. The only analogue car in my stable that I would rate higher is the F50 due to its even more go-kart like response and a better engine even if CGT has more modern brakes. When pushing hard, it feels equally at home on a track as a mountain pass. Reliability over the past 8 years has been good but maintenance expensive due to parts wear - more than my average annual bill for the F40 & F50 combined (even accounting for the 10 yearly fuel tanks).

The Senna is a turn-key track car that happens to be road legal and thus without slicks. To some this may be a compromise, but as I have found, particularly in the year we have had so far, it allows far more flexibility to access a track frequently with minimal preparation. As such it is peerless and its track manners are exceptional. It can be pushed all day to the limit with the knowledge that it will go, turn and stop as intended. The car encourages commitment and rewards accordingly while remaining forgiving without being soft. For such a modern car with all the attendant driver aids, its communication is remarkably direct, and until it is seriously out of shape, gives little indication of electronic intervention. The brakes, for a road car, are astounding as is the downforce through high speed corners. On the road, it is not possible for me to safely explore the upper third of the performance envelope except fleetingly. I have done perhaps 15-20 track sessions and 2000 road miles and the car has been solidly reliable. As this is my only McLaren, I am not well qualified to comment on the marque's reliability others have noted. As for it looks, while subjective, I would say they are best enjoyed from the driver's seat.

Turning to the tdf, it is without doubt the best front-engined car I have driven. Its larger than life personality permeates every aspect of the driving experience from the electric throttle response, the razor sharp turn in, and the engine song at high rpm. The initial learning curve is steep and it takes some recalibration to deal with the car's ultra-sharp nose from inducing oversteer. There is also a greater sense of the electronic driver aids working around you than in the Senna. Managing weight transfer under braking into a corner and accelerating out while balancing the car on the knife edge at the limit requires small but precisely metered inputs and, in my case at least, a lot of practice. Hence the 6000 miles in 2 years. When it all comes together, they are moments to savour. Both the front engined configuration and its size preclude it from being a track weapon in the traditional sense. However, to safely extract the most of this car and revel in the depth of its character, a track is essential in my opinion. In some ways, therein lies the conundrum - it really needs a track to properly utilize even though it is not a track car. It is not simply a question of 750hp or more on the road. I would be quicker in my 812 through some mountain passes because its limits can be approached with perhaps a greater margin of error yet it is the tdf provides a greater sense of occasion. The tdf requires intense discipline and rewards you in spades. Finally with regard to tdf vs the upcoming 812VS, I would say that the tdf may well stand clear of the 812VS simply because of its sheer force of personality much the same way as the F40 stood clear of the F50 that succeeded it, even if the latter was the "better" car. It will be fascinating to see how Ferrari intends to supersede the tdf.

Not sure any of this helps the OP with his decision but they are three distinct and tantalizing cars.

 

Would love a TdF but struggle to justify the price when an 812 SF is based on the same platform and probably delivers much of the overall experience. Sure, the TdF is predictably more raw and special, but with the CGT you get a truly bespoke chassis and powertrain, not to mention a manual gearbox and removable roof panel. No other Porsche model comes close to offering that package.

The Senna is based on the 720 chassis and powertrain but with aero and lightness taking priority over comfort/aesthetics. It’s a very niche car and I’m glad that it exists, but it’s ultimately based on an existing car, just like the TdF.

Since I already have a Senna and 812SF, my million would go towards a CGT.

 

Exactly, it s 2 differents cars, even if they re similar in a way.
TDF is much more classic and offer a purer experience with less artifices with a more classic design.
But, the engine of the 812 VS is ...not automotive, but balistics....

 

Why did you sell it so quickly may i ask? It seems that a lot of Senna hit the 2nd hand market very quickly, at least here in the USA. And a lot of them were not even at a much higher price than MSRP that you knew the owner was just flipping it for money and never really intended to keep it.

 

In my experience, my current McLaren (720S) has been more reliable than my current Ferrari (GTC4 Lusso). It's been faultless in fact. I also prefer its design. Agree about secondhand values of McLarens, but then my Ferrari has depreciated more than my McLaren - and the 488 hasn't done well on seocndhand values either.

 

No experience with Senna, but I own Tdf and have seat time in CGT. On a scale of 1-5, some factors subjective and thus personal opinion:

Driver Engagement: CGT 5, TDF 5.
Drive Feel: CGT 4, TDF 5.
Engine: CGT 5, TDF 5.
Engine Sound: CGT 5, TDF 5.
Throttle Response: CGT 5, TDF 5.
Steering: CGT 4, TDF 5.
Brakes: CGT 2, TDF 5.
Clutch (while driving): CGT 4, TDF 5.
Clutch (stop and go): CGT 1, TDF 5.
Creature comforts: CGT 2, TDF 4.
Seat comfort: CGT 2, TDF 5.
Looks: CGT 4, TDF 5.
Well-spec'd examples available: CGT 5, TDF 2.

Total: CGT 48, TDF 61.

CGT
Has that SOLID well-engineered Porsche feel, as if chiseled from a single block. Requires/demands full engagement from driver, mostly in a good way. Engine instantly responsive and loves to wind out, wail, and breathe. Sounds incredible and you really get to hear it due to open roof config and placement of exhaust pipes. Throttle response INSTANT and perfect. Steering has perfect amount of feedback, as good as it gets in "analog" form. Brakes are a problem. Until/unless you've got heat in them, they are basically not there. It can be downright scary at times, you MUST remain cognizant of this! Takes fair amount of heat before they perform. Shifter placement excellent. Clutch is very good while driving/moving. But getting the car started from stop requires practice.. Stop and start traffic in city, forget about it. Just avoid it, else you'll start to hate the car. Creature comforts par for the course of that vintage, which compared to today's are compromised. Seat comfort, per my preference, not good bordering on awful. I could not find a comfortable setting. Disclaimer, I have a bad back. Looks subjective, I still love the look but must admit does now look dated. Since there was a limited range of colors/options in which to spec it, examples found in secondary market are all pretty good - some better than others of course, per personal preferences. But no ODDBALL specs. Always in the back of my mind that CGT has earned nickname "widow maker" for reasons, as it is full analog and no nannies to bail you out. You're on your own. Porsche test driver and legendary race car driver, Walter Rohrl, said it was "the first car in my life that I drive and I feel scared." That fear in CGT can, in an instant, go from good/fun fear to very bad fear/result.

TDF
Oozes Ferrari special sauce. Like CGT, requires/demands full engagement from driver. Engine instantly explosive to the point of feeling like you are piloting a nuclear-powered vessel. Creates glorious V12 mechanical sounds across entire rev range, thanks to FX parts, mechanical lifters, etc. "Digital" steering is amazing for front-mid engine layout, with instantaneous turn-in due to meaty up-front rubber/4-wheel steer. (I refer to it as "digital" due to "virtual SWB" dynamic created by onboard systems.) Feels light and nimble, in many ways more akin to rear-mid engine layout, which is very much a part of Tdf's "special sauce." Brakes fantastic from the moment you get in, fade-free, predictable, confidence-inspiring. Shifts are the quickest, most aggressive/explosive, race-like I've ever experienced. Race-like paddles are long enough to easily find them mid-turn. JWW said it, and it's true, every pull of the paddle is like conducting a symphony orchestra. You could NEVER pilot a car like this with manual transmission, impossible. Creature comforts quite good, A/C works fantastically, and HiFi sound is there if you need/want it (I never use it). Seat fits like a glove, as you sit IN it, not ON it. Looks subjective of course, but to me Tdf is beautiful modern interpretation of 275 GTB. Problem is, many who ordered Tdf new wanted to create something unique, meaning there are many (too many?) highly-customized specs out there, some bordering on ODDBALL. Can be difficult to find one that suits your taste. Every drive is an adventure and represents new opportunity to explore seemingly "limitless" capabilities of the car within context of my comparatively "limited" driving skills. That ever-evolving relationship between Tdf and driver is a big part of the allure/reward of ownership experience.

Net, if you're looking for analog super car driving experience, CGT is Porsche equivalent to F50. If you're looking for state-of-the art experience with the hair-raising excitement of F40 packaged in modern-day equivalent of 275 GTB, the Tdf is it. In an ideal world, one would own BOTH - along with the aforementioned F50 and 275 GTB please.

 

Good analysis...agree with everything except for the bit about the “hair raising excitement of the F40”...in my humble opinion no car made since the F40 has come close to matching its hair raising excitement! It is still the king...



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CGT no question.
10 years from now it will feel even more special then today, the other 2 will be interesting but not on the same level.
I have my own algorithm to judge the "specialness" of a car, if my Mother can drive it I have no interest in it.
Keep the electronic nannies on, both Senna and Tdf can be driven by her, in CGT she wouldn't make 10 feet.