THE NEW P15 IS OFFICIAL.....

The rear of the car would be greatly improved without that terrible fixed wing. Active aero similar to the P1 would be huge. Who cares if 50 kg was added.

 

Here's a thought I just had. I wonder if Mclaren tweaked the engine at all. Or they just plopped in the same engine as the 720S and were just truthful about the power output this time around.

 

I was thinking the same thing

 

Interesting attitude.

 

I'm surprised about the design development at McLaren. With the P1 (and then 650S/675LT) imo they have found a unique, modern, well balanced and potential design language. What is going on now seems to be irritating. I guess to be primarily "extreme" will not be enough, there will be a lack of sustainability.

 

many people easily pay 2-4k per kilo to loose a kilo of weight from a car. 50 kilios is 110lbs thats massive.

Thats before we get into all that CF that adorns ferraris and other cars costing 1k per 0z which has no apparent real weight savings, but yeah it looks good along with the naff plastic sheilds..

The difference is this Mclaren is the real thing, whats there is there for function. There is a reason why no other supercar or near supercar is this light or has anywhere near this level of downforce,

If youre into exploiting your supercars performance, youre going to the track, weight, aero and gearing are key factors. Other supercars are lardy, have some aero and street gearing so depite their power they really are not great on track unless heavily moded, they also isolate the driver which is a function of execution and weight.

This Mclaren appears to be an out the box trackday star, light weight is a virtuous circle.

 

50 kg is an amount a hefty individual could lose. Get real. You’d never ever notice.

 

Don't be so sure.

And so you're saying only buyers can comment on how horrendous looking it is...how interesting. You better not comment on it.

 

Nope, I'm saying most opinions don't matter because you don't make a difference. Yes I'm sure, lots of talkers/posers that are irrelevant to the market.

 

Sorry, but I can’t agree with you. There are an infinite amount of ways to handle surfacing between the critical aero areas of a car design. And if this Senna is the “real thing”, there is NO WAY that it would EVER be road homologated, too many compromises are required. So in that light, this car is a race car design let down, pulling the wool over the eyes of all those interested in a serious track car.
Furthermore, if you choose to attribute the design on the need for engineered excellence, then that car would never have spent any time in an AUTOMOTIVE design studio. And I can’t imagine that was the situation at McLaren AUTOMOTIVE. Because: Road cars have to be sold to a buying (and discriminating) public while race cars are like military issue equipment. Therefore it doesn’t surprise me that the buyers of the Senna had to commit to it sight unseen - with the looks it has, many are no doubt face palming themselves.

 

So are you buying one? Is your opinion relevant? What makes ones opinion relevant out of curiosity? At the end of the day they are just opinions no matter who states them.

For the record I like your 720, is that irrelevant?

 

My point is that an opinion does not matter unless you are a potential buyer for this class of car and most here are not including myself. I wouldn't even get a shot at a car like this even if I loved it.

 

Whose to say that the opinion of the majority of those who can afford it is so different from people who are close, which many here are?

 

Most hefty individuals are nto goign to loose 11lbs(50) kgs and anyone who shoudl probably is not seriously driving on track to start with.

In my 2400lbs lotus, personaly losing 20lbs lbs is already noitceable on tack in terms of cornering balance/limit when turning right(I sit on the left). If I carry a 120lbs passenger its really noticeable in terms of overall cornering and braking.

Loosing 10 lbs of unsprung weight from the wheels shortened braking distances measurably and decreased pad wear. The wheels probably affected other areas of perfromance like accleration and cornering but I have yet to empiracly measure these.

In fact in most cars perform measurably diferently between a full and empty tank of gas.

50 kilos, or 110 pounds is highly significant. This car(senna) appears to be at least 300lbs lighter than anything close to it. Add the fact that it has lots of downforce means the performance gain(on track) over a 720 is more than just slight. its yuge.

True though if all your ever going to do is floor it on the street all this low weight and aero mean near zip, in fcat an extra 50hp would probably close the gap. Same for a few "hot" laps at a track once or twice per year.

Low weight means not only better performance but also that each component(esp tires) needs to work significantly less hard for a given laptime, that means sustained laptimes lap after lap.

Look at it this way, a much lighter car than a P1 or Laf (senna) can turn the same or better laptimes and do so comsistently all day. The lighter Senna has less overall power way less and less overall complexity(maintanace). All that electronic trickery of the heavier cars gives close numbers till the weight melts the tires.

F16 vs F15 in dogfight.

Ill bet the senna is far more alive and viceral on road at "normal" speeds too. Light weight does that.

Teh thing about the F1 was not so much its paper specs in terms of build, but what those specs (stiff tube light weight high hp)aceheived in terms of road and track perfroamnce. Yes the paper specs of the senna are different to a F1. But it too has a stiff chasis lots of Hp and light weight, to which we would add undoubtably superior aero..

 

Shhhhh, don't tell all of the so called auto journalist/reviewers that their opinions don't count.

 

Affording is one thing, many of us have the funds. This doesn't mean you are a buyer. In this case McLaren had these things sold out well in advance so no chance at getting one. Back to my point unless you are a buyer it doesn't matter. This doesn't mean you cant kick and yell about how ugly it is to you but whos listening? A bunch of car forum people?

On another note the designers at McLaren had to know this car would be controversial, it doesn't take a design expert to to note how awkward it looks. Right down to the glass in the doors. Perhaps it was done on purpose?

 

They matter as much as Mike Greenberg commenting on football players. Worthless commentary but for entertainment. I am sure you dont buy cars based on auto journalists analysis or do you?

 

Yeah anyone can make a light stiff track car, but as you say it will never be road homoglated. On the other hand I am trying to think of a road homoglated car thats not too heavy for the track, or has huge aero, viper acr perhaps, but thats only technicaly road legal, not practicaly so, and its still way heavier.. A lotus elise is not too heavy but its relatively low powered and still lacks the aero.

What makes the senna the "real" thing is its road homoglated and seems to be something truly great on track because it has a stiff tub relatively low weight great aero and still lots of hp.

I get people dont like the styling, to me its purposeful, and a small price to pay given the overall spec. Yes maybe they could have used a different design language but as this is essentialy evolving a 720 tub and shape for ultra purpose its makes sense where they ended up.

the Enzo is one ugly incongruous car and the MC12 is really just a track car with a little styling around the edges, yet we accept those.

The senna is not about styling its about pure purpose, as close as you can get a road legal car from a manufatuerer to epic track performance. We forgave the Viper ACR its wings etc for its track performance and in the case of the ACR its really only technicaly road legal, its not really roadable on most roads.

Ill bet like the F1 the senna works just fine on road with a reasonable degree of compliance, and slaughters anything else that is road homoglated if you count multiple laps, in fcat it probably slaughters most Gt3 race cars, yet is turn key and Ill bet its lightness confers a road experience other moderns cant get close to. That all make it a seminal car in my book, and we have not seen a seminal car from anyone in many years. The Laf P1 and 918 were to me not seminal just gimick cars.

 

I value all 'opinions' and make my own choice.

 

I bet you that if you drove a 2700 pound car with 800 hp and 2800 pound car with 800 back to back, you'd have a 50/50 shot of guessing which was which.

 

Well there is not even a 2800lbs competitor, which says much about what otehrs are producing and why this car is special..
True runing down a straight 2700 or 2800 lbs with 800hp would be hard pressed to tell the difference , here gearing is far more important but thats a different issue. But then if thats the measure/cirteria then a veyron is a great car, instead of being an overwrought overweight irrelevance.

We come at this from different perspectives as evidenced by your 800hp comment, because the Hp is not the measure.

Spend any reasopnable time on track and you can defnitelty tell the difference between 27000 lbs and 2800lbs, where it counts,and thats on corners on track.
Wheter this car has 500 or 800hp is irrelevant to the effects of weight on cornbers. You can only enter and exit a corner so fast, excess hp does zip here, but weight and aero are huge factors.

To answer your question directly, I can tell the difference in my 2400lbs car between a lighter and heavier passenger really easily, and thats what 50lbs. I can tell the difference between 3lbs heaveir or lighter wheels. In fact going from a 35lbs battery to a 4lbs lipo one made ahuge difference to laptimes and car balanace. (partialy due to battery placement also)None of this is subtle once you know how to get towards the edge of a car performance envelope.

What makes this new Maclren so great is it breaks the formula of more Hp with more weight with more ease of use luxury, needing bigger everything to cope and so on, cars judged by paper specs made to look nice and impress at the valet park. To me thats a tyrany and a false measure of performance, just as a single fast lap magazine number is an irrelevant measure.

Instead this car is a return to more elegant/intelligent egineering, namely light weight as a virtue, throw in great aero too, the excess hp is just a bonus for some long straights, that BTW was the F1 formula too.

Personaly I Iwould much rater drive a 26-2700lbs car with great aero and 600 hp than a 3400lbs car with any amount of hp you choose to imagine, not least because on track where these cars can be used the extra Hp does practicaly zip while the weight works against everything that is important in terms of "real" performance.

I get that most people buy these cars because they can, and its a way of self congratulating, and arriving. So comfort, ease of use, styling etc are really important factors along with better than the rest paper specs. But for anyone who is actualy going to really use their supercar, this one is the pick of the bunch by far. The rest are mere pretenders.

To the extent this car has influence on other manufactuers and we go in a lighter weight direction thats excellent and far more inportant than ever increasing hp numbers. Power to weight with light weight and aero is really the formula if youre talking real performance, and for that matter road enjoyment over
road thrills..

 

This all got me thinkign of Maclren taking this light weight formula to their 570 range. 600hp 2600lbs, sign me up.

 

Well you’re wrong. Apollo Intensa is a 780 hp track special that weighs under 2800 pounds and looks fantastic.

 

Now youre just trolling or a fantasist. The Apollo is $2.7 million vaporware and nowhere near being homoglated road legal car in most countries. I seriously doubt its properly developed or has balanced aero for a track enviroment, Ill put this car in the same irrelevant category as the 300mph henssey, a paper numbers fantasists delight.

meanwhile back on planet earth, where we drive round corners and on tracks the mere 700k Mclaren which will be road legal everywhere and comply with regs is actualy a real product made and supported by a real mnaufactuer with warranty turn key etc and will be a superlative road legal road useable car on track..

but yeah if youre a paper number driver, then the Apollo is great and its "performance" is as relevant as car that goes over 200 mph..

If its just track youre talkign about, well a 170 mph 8 cylinder radical will smoke the all. But thats a pure track car, really uncomfortable and something quite different.

 

Apollo made the Gumpert go around corners pretty well. And on that subject of smaller producers, the closest F1 successor is SCG’s new car. 650 hp, sub 3000 pounds, 3 seat layout, great and simple styling.