Nicely said and I appreciate the fact that you didn't continue the discussion in an aggressive tone. Just because I don't like what De Tomaso created, does not mean I don't love the brand, and I believe I should be truthful to myself and say things like I see them. I also own several Maseratis and one of them is a Ghibli GT (December '98 production, 2.0 engine, Verde Tundra, 20,000km only from new). I'm not looking at a different car company, I only drive Maseratis.
Mike, I also will never be blessed enough to buy such a "real" Maserati....! But Maserati -as all other manufacturers- have also their negative aspects. And its worth to discuss them here on a forum mostly focussed on ....Maseratis. In the colorful history of Maserati the Biturbo was never a successful car - financially and image wise! It made the money to get the factory run. Nothing less but also nothing more! Due to the awful build quality it ruined the image of the brand. Not to mention the difference in grace and elegance of the Ghibli, Khamsin etc. compared to this BMW-look-a-likes. And the QPIII? Well, a successful car -moneywise- with an impressive visual standing. But nothing more. Not a beautiful car, really...! (But I much like the QPI). Yes, I am a big admirer of the "real" Maseratis because of their performance, looks, image, historical importance and social standing. And all this is what the brand deserves. The Biturbos do not fit in that system. Not in my view and not in the international market view. All I can say to the Biturbo owners is: Have fun - but nuttin`mo`!
I don't frequent the Ferrari model specific forums very much so I don't know how they behave in regards to such issues. I know full well that certain models of Ferraris are not nearly as vaunted as others and no doubt snobbish opinions are held about some of those cars. Ferrari (Lamborghini too) has plenty of their own maintenance and technical/construction foibles to deal with. Some are almost identical in the same era cars like fuse boxes. So do Ferrari fans bash themselves as much as this? I don't see it in the Lamborghini world. So what is it then about "some" Masertisti that leads them to form circular firing squads, then begin firing the "dreaded" Citroen/Detomaso/Biturbo bullets in rapid fire all the while bemoaning those cars existence as the very reason for Maserati not reaching the pinnacle it so roundly deserves yet they continue to LOUDLY point this out for everyone to see at almost every opportunity? Talk about marketing imbeciles! Take a cue from Mark Sonnery. He knows better and look how he's helped out the Khamsin. If these cars are such an open wound of disgust for you then leave it alone already, let it heal and stop picking at the scab! You just perpetuate the very negativity you purport has harmed the marque so badly. BTW, shoot yourself in the foot ceremonies are now open. They have been for quite some time ... Image Unavailable, Please Login
I always stick to that motto - but didn`t care about the car! Its a Maserati. Period! But its not recognised by the most of enthusiast as a car of any whatsoever importance! And thats exactly what the car deserves....
Agreed on Shamal. All may have a look in October issue of Octane magazine - page 136 and see what they write about the Shamal. Maybe some of the "experts" should read the article. Octane does have a reputation to know what they write about, isn't it? At last in Europe good Shamals (and there are not many left...) have already reached (and exceeded) the price level of F 348 (not really a surprise) but even 355. What does that mean to us?
The design is different enough to attract interest. The one repainted in blue looks very, very nice. The rest of it is not a whole lot different than the later Ghibli IIs. And those with the revised rear suspension, 6 speed Getrag and limited slip ZF differential are better handling cars. There are even a few with V8's transplanted into them. I have to wonder if that doesn't spoil the balance of the car though?
Dare I say anything! Given that I seem to have a bit of a love affair for the flawed QPIII. I had a perfect QP1 but it was a bit daunting to drive - felt like I was driving a museum exhibit! Anyway, I remember when the truck delivered by 86 (ish) Biturbo Convertible with 6,000 miles on it. It was so cool and sounded amazing. I have written about it before but the car was fantastic. This era had some great cars AFTER you had them re-set up and fixed. I never saw some of the stranger varieties like the 430 etc and they do seem out of synch with the quality of this era although I am sure there are some good ones. I do feel some honour is due to Maserati owners that supported the brand during the "wilderness" years. I appreciate the QPIII but I am not blind to it flaws. It is not a Ghibli, Mexico or a 3500 or 5000 but it has quality and still looks Rock n' Roll I just took it from London to Bath and back - some 175 miles. It screamed along quite happily at 140kph and at least two drivers were taking videos! When I filled up another driver asked permission to photograph. Now its not about ego but the public recognise that it is rare - when is the last time you saw a QP III in top form in full flight. Anyway, I give full honour to the great top of the marque cars owned by so many nice people. I also think that there are true enthusiasts who have bought and maintained their wilderness Maseratis and they are also part of the fraternity. Indeed I would rather chat with a passionate biturbo owner who loves the marque than a banker in a new Maserati that plans on buying a Lexus next! PS here are some pictures of my old Biturbo just to annoy Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
And, someday, people will realize how good the last cars from the Biturbo family were. Maserati killed off the Spyder, right after they got it right. All the bugs fixed, a fast and reliable car, but it didn't sell because the reputation from the earlier cars was still there. Maserati even dropped the Biturbo name, just calling them Spyders. They are great cars and the last of the wilderness era cars will be going up in value. It is a shame Maserati couldn't hold out a couple more years for people to realize those last cars with the fuel injection, bigger motor, five lug wheels, Brenbo brakes, Ranger diff, etc. were really good cars. It is a parrallel with what Pontiac did with the Fiero, or Cadillac with the Allante......finally get it right, then give up....
Bob, ...hah! very smart... Of course I meant that the Biturbo truly deserves not to be recognised by collectors as an important Maserati!
My personal opinion is that even though these Biturbos aren't too well respected by a lot of people, and may not be at the top of the Maserati line, they are STILL a Maserati. They had the quirks and issues as many other exotic and collectible cars do, and were just as high maintenance. Problem is that since these don't sell for a lot of money, a lot of people were able to afford to buy one, but really couldn't afford to maintain it. Hence, tragic/expensive failures and unreliability issues lead people to feel that these were the biggest POS ever made. People's experiences, the not so exotic body style, high maintenance, low resale values, and the history of this model all did this car in! Plus, the TIME article that came out awhile back branding these in the list of the 50 worst cars ever made didn't help with perceptions either: http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658533_1658531,00.html As mentioned earlier in this thread.........certain models of Ferraris and Lambos have their share of problems as well, but you don't hear people complaining about them like you do the Biturbo. The main reason being is because the value of those cars are much more. If you can pay the price of "admission" to own one, you are more than likely going to maintain it and not let it fall into disrepair. That's just my $.02
I want to add that I am also a Biturbo owner. It has left me on the side of the road a few times and I've said my share of not so nice words about it as well! However, I just get back in there, figure out the problem and get it back on the road again. Even though it's involuntary training, I have learned a lot about the car with these repairs! As for the future of these and values?? It definitely doesn't look very good at this point. But who knows.........as more and more of these get junked, they will be come more and more rare? Maybe in 30-40 years from now they will be worth something? Maybe/maybe not. In my case, I got the car for myself to enjoy and not for an investment. It's a fun car to drive.......as long as it's in a running mood! BTW William..........Very nice Biturbo Spyder! Looks sharp! If I were to get another Biturbo, it will probably be a Spyder.
Plenty of ignoramuses like the one who wrote that article out there, some even closer than that. It's an unfortunate trait of humans that they relish in condemning something so readily that they know so little about. I guess it makes them feel like they belong to the herd and are important. "common wisdom" The parts supply for the early cars is still very good here in the USA but parts for my Ghibli Open Cup, the stuff shared with the street version, is getting more ridiculous all the time. That is sad. Some stuff for cars like the 228, Karif and Shamal must be frighteningly hard to find these days.
+1 I totally agree re the last 1989 1994 spyders. They are really great fun to drive especially with the 4 speed automatic. FGM
Another sad looking Ghibli on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-Maserati-Ghibli-Black-Red-Clear-Title-California-Project-Car-/130775754219?forcev4exp=true It amazes me the number of crappy Maseratis that still exist. This one looks like it had an American engine before they gave up on it; notice the non-factory engine posts. Mucho dollars/euros needed to make this one right ... Ivan Image Unavailable, Please Login
Well they haven't been worth a decent amount of money for all that long and even with today's valuations is this thing worth bringing back?
(disclaimer: native french speaker, so excuse my sometimes poor english). The cars from the biturbo era are still considered like the black sheep of the biturbo family. And they tend to sell for scrap price (at least the first models). It's a shame, but I must say I see that like an opportunity. It's the proof that today, it's still possible to own an incredible car, with outstanding performance (even compared to most of today sport cars), really involving the driver and offering great sensations even at middle speed (some of the newer car need to be pushed way to hard to offer the same thrill, impossible on an open road), all of that for a very small price. At home, I have two ghibli (I know, I know, strange idea) and I don't know which other car could give me so much (+300HP, 0-60 in 5.6, brembos, Getrag 6, full connolly leather interior, same differential as the ferrari 456 and so on) for the same amount of money. I don't know how the price will evolve in the future. Maybe they will cost the same or less. Maybe someday, people will realise how much fun/a bargain they are, and the price will fly, who knows? Anyway, I don't really mind. Oh, one more thing, you can find an independant specialist who will charging way less than the official (anyway, at least in my part of europ, most official dealer don't know -and don't want to know- anything about the biturbo). Should I say that these cars look way better in the flesh than in pictures? You should really try one of the cars to make your own idea. Image Unavailable, Please Login
They look very nice indeed. I have a Ghibli Open Cup car. But this probably not the right thread to discuss this or post pictures. Start a new thread about Ghibli II's or something?
You're right, I remove most of the pictures. I'll do a post about my ghibli cup (one of the 27 japanese 2.8 305PS ghibli cup, not a lot of people know that these cars exist in fatc, it could be interesting).
It is well known that Japan has a huge fan club, they have their own Shamal Club as well. Although I don't agree with the Japanese "modify everything" culture, some of their cars are way too much modified, but not all, some are as good as new.
No, he talks only about the 3 RHD ghibli cup who were made by "the meridien" prior the importation of the 2.0 330HP cup; basically, they were ghibli GT 2.8 (284hp) modified to cup specification. I didn't see something about the japanese Cup. The japanese ghibli cup has a modified ecu to increase the boost, the 2.8 producing 305hp (and more torque than the 330HP of the 2.0 cup). I will do a new thread about this car later, I don't want to hijack this post.
