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The OFFICIAL Vintage ethics debate thread!

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Horsefly, Aug 1, 2006.

  1. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 14, 2002
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    Since I seem to ruffle vintage feathers every time that I bring up the constant Ferrari double standard of "rebody 50 years ago and it's great, but rebody this year and it's a hack job", I thought that I would let Terry's quote from another thread speak for itself. Terry asked the exact same question that I did many months (years?) ago: how many years have to go by before a rebody is considered a period treasure instead of today's trash? And dare I anty up for discussion a modern day Ferrari that has the original body removed and rebodied with a personal creation? If Joe Greaserag did the same thing in his backyard, would the Ferrari community herald it's showing with the same reaction? I don't think so.
    Sometimes the emperor really has NEW clothes, but sometimes his barn finds are just,...well,....somebody else's hack job from 40 or 50 years ago.

    At the very least, perhaps we can isolate these kind of debates into this thread since so many people get SO bent out of shape when they read these kind of things that disrupt their contented ideas of what is trash versus treasure in the Ferrari world. Like a moth to the flame, they can't seem to use the IGNORE function and stop reading things that upset them so much. Perhaps isolation into one thread will keeps those moths contained inside one closet.

    Flame suit on!
     
  2. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    But that's like saying that Chevrolet did not provide bodies for any car that it made in the 50s. Technically correct as well. Bodies by Fisher and Smith were actually put onto Chevrolet chassis. But that doesn't mean that I can have an Italian coachmaker build a sporty body for my 1957 Chevrolet chassis and that it will be period correct just because Chevrolet did not build its own auto bodies "in house". That logic wouldn't fly with Chevrolet or Ford or anything else; why should it fly for Ferrari?
     
  3. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Dr.Stuart Schaller
    To me a car is not totally original unless it has the first body ever on the car still on it, WITHOUT modifications. If it is substantially a real car with the real chassis and motor, but with a later body, done in period, it's still original, but that is NOT the same as a TOTALLY original car. The car remains original if it has old parts that have been replaced with NOS parts, used parts from the same model, or factory authorized "reproduction" parts.
     
  4. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    5,936
    Central NJ
    Actually, Arlie I like your idea.

    If you have an issue with a car in any thread, post your issue here.

    By the way, rebodying in period is like what Jim is doing with his Enzo, which to me is not the same as butchering a 40-50 year old car.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  5. GTSguy

    GTSguy Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
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    Jon

    Stuart, this is a perfectly sane way to put it! In other words, there are degrees of originality. In the end judgement is required. Some changes may add value, others detract. In the end nothing is really 'original' in the strictest sense. Time itself takes care of that. Who can say that the color hasn't faded etc..? Originality is in the eye/mind of the beholder.
     
  6. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    Just for the record.... I posted that in the other thread as much to make fun of Arlie as anything else. :) I knew he would pick up on it and rant away.... but I had no idea he would launch into an whole new thread and diatribe!


    My apologies for getting him started again!




    Terry
     
  7. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    May 14, 2002
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    Looks like Terry is one of the moths. He just couldn't stay away since he knows that his own words and mine are in agreement for once!
     
  8. GTSguy

    GTSguy Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
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    Jon
    And so it goes!


    BTW: I agree the Monza looks like it has a high air scoop.

    Jon
     
  9. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    May 14, 2002
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    But what about butchering the car back when it was almost NEW? If somebody took the body off a 1957 TR back in 1957 and bolted on their new creation, it would have been looked upon as butchery. If it had been a 1957 Chevy, it still would have been looked upon as extravagant butchery. I remember seeing a 1956 Corvette that was customized back in the late 50s with garish fins and bubble top. It looked like garbage back in the 50s and it still looks like garbage! A shameful waste of a 56 Corvette then and now. For that reason, the technical act of removing the original body to put on a custom destroys any originality that can never be retreived unless by some miracle the original factory body is located. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but an original Ferrari frame with a Devin body is still just as "original" as an original Ferrari frame with a custom made Italian body. Both bodies are technically bogus from a Ferrari purist point of view. But if the creation itself is pleasing to the owner, then so be it. But you can't ignore the constant double standard:
    Built by Joe Bob equals BOGUS.
    Built for Joe Snob equals rare automotive collectible.
     
  10. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    237
    Yes it is all about snobbery, but.....
    So what
    Thats why people buy Ferrari's and not Toyota's/ Rolls Royce's etc., right ?

    I mean there have been a lot of more technically beter cars/ faster cars/ more modern cars/ etc....
    But they werent built in a small town in northern italy, by Enzos staff, using the best materials all put together by naked virgins. Ha Ha
    I mean where is the romance.
    And thats what people want ??

    Tim
     
  11. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 23, 2002
    12,366
    I think the answer to all this is really simple. Once the bastardized car becomes Vintage, all is forgiven. And why the hell not?
     
  12. RockaForte

    RockaForte Formula Junior

    May 2, 2005
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    Porto
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    Pedro Mendes
    But just today I wondered, and I feel that this is very connected to the topic of this thread, Imagine that a rebodied 250 GT Nembo is found in a barn somewhere, the bodywork is near to completly unrepairable. Should that car be restored to his first body or his later Nembo creation ? What would be the primary force between the choice ? Re-sale value ?
    Thanks, and sorry for the hijacking
     
  13. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    237
    As for the rebody issue, well to me if it was rebodied to make a statement or to make it correct then fair enough. But to rebody just to pass it off as REAL just to MAKE MONEY then no, that's totally dodgy and I dont agree with that.
    Example 1 - A 250 GTE rebodied as a 250GTO in 1964 is of no more value today than a 250 GTE converted to a 250 GTO c2006. I mean we all know it has been converted and probably wasted a perfectly decent 250 GTE, and will be worth the cost of a 250 GTE and x amount of labour to convert, and not much more. Yet what is wrong with it, NOTHING in my opinion, I want a 250GTo and cant get one as there is what, maybe 36 made and they are worth $8,000,000 + so I build one, and I dont make any secret that is a replica, I agree with that.
    Example 2 - Can you really blame Tom if #0202 comes out looking as it did in 1952, I mean that is what it was and he has every right to show his car as that, but it is still a fake body. However, If it came out with a Testa Rossa body as perhaps fitted c.1957 and it was being passed off as a 250 Testa Rossa . Or if the above 250 GTO replica was then stamped with the number of a missing 250 GTO. It would be like finding someone passing off a cheap fake as the Real Mona Lisa or a cheap Chanel handbag/ Rolex ripoff, then I would be a little pissed and and feel like well it's a fraud, and I disagree with that.

    Tim
     
  14. southbay356

    southbay356 Rookie

    Jul 20, 2006
    40
    I think all cars that have been crashed need to be destroyed , that way the breed will not be tarnished by cars that are less than "pure"

    also you must have Italian air in your tires and wear 50s clothes :)

    Yes this sounds stupid , but where do you draw the line ?

    I would rather have 100 restored Ferraris than 100 crashed junkers that the "purists" say can never be restored properly because of past "sins" by previous owners.

    What do you expect people who find these "barn cars" to do ?
    leave them "as found" or put them back how they came from the factory ?

    I vote to restore back to the factory , or if a race car as it raced at a certain point , since race cars were alway modified thru thre season....

    Dave
     
  15. Argento

    Argento Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2005
    530
    UK
    Full Name:
    Argentium
    I'm not sure I follow any logical point here at all, So to help me understand better, I propose a trial, Here's a car that's currently for sale, In fact it's one I am considering, (As I can't afford to by a real one), So let me know what the problem is or is not as your opinion dictates?

    It's a SII GTE, 03737, Rebodied by a 'REAL' Italian Allegretti in the 80's, It has some 'Original' SWB parts and a proper engine, It's quite a well known car and is being retailed by a very well respected English specialist.

    http://www.racecar.co.uk/250swb/index.htm

    Regards,

    Argento
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    As both you and the seller know exactly what this car is and isn't and the market is always right (What someone will pay at any given moment is what it is worth) only you can decide if this is something for you.

    This car has been modified and it will never be put back as it would make no economic sense to do so, so what it was is irrelevant.

    Many Ferrari's have been modified. Ferrari modified their own cars. They changed the bodies, they changed the engines, they changed the wheelbases, they changed the track, they took chassis from one car and years later re stamped those chassis and made different cars. This happened to some cars that today are worth many millions of dollars. Who did what is very important in determining a cars value. The Breadvan for example is a different issue than this car as a Series II GTO re bodied by Ferrari into a series II GTO is yet again a different case.

    The market over time is always right. I personally have seen it proved true many times.

    You know exactly what this car is. It will be a lot of fun to own, IMHO much more fun to drive than what it was originally. It is not a real SWB Comp Car but you know that.

    P 4/5 is similar. When I embarked on that journey I had no idea what Ferrari's position would ultimately be on that car. I did what I did because I wanted to do it, am very lucky to be able to afford to, and frankly don't worry about what other's may think. As it turned out when Ferrari saw the car they felt it deserved to be an official car and agreed on an official name for it: FERRARI P 4/5 by PININFARINA so that is what it now is. Of course I'm glad they like my car and feel it worthy to officially wear it's badges and have a unique name and to be listed the the Official Ferrari Factory records as such but when I started on this road all I cared about was making myself happy and had no idea as to how it would turn out.

    Make your self happy. The rest will follow.
     
  17. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,566
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    Dave Helms
    Interesting debate we have on the Vintage Race cars all the time. I am currently restoring the sister car to the Chaparral 1 built at Troutman - Barnes back in the early 60's. Does one restore the car back to the original Lotus 19 of which only a hand full were made, or does it get restored to the later configuration where it was highly successful. The car only ran 1 race in its "delivered, Chapman" shape but ran and won many races in its Troutman / Barnes bodywork with a Ford V8 replacing the Climax engine. It is in the later configuration that Lloyd Ruby, Charlie Kolb, Jim Clark...... drove the car. What is correct? For what period in its life? Bent up old race car that ended up in novice hands after it was no longer competitive. Sound like some GTO's that floated around? Answer is you restore it to period correct for what ever period the current owner likes. It is the responsibility of future generations to decide if they would like to redo the restoration to another period in history. The added value of a project like this is they have multiple histories and can be a totally period correct "other car" if one so wishes.
    Another car currently being restored is an old USRRC tube frame "bastard" built from "borrowed" parts from Shelby by an employee that was building the big block cars at the time. Never highly successful in that configuration (actually quite ugly) but after a Riverside crash it was rebuilt with M8 McLaren parts from Donahue's car. In the M8 configuration it was only marginally successful but at least attractive to the eye. They never built a tube frame M8 so this is totally incorrect to the purist but it was never called a McLaren and never was. It was the Windigo Special, the Capella Special, and a few other names. As I cant afford to go back to the Capella Special car, I choose to rebuild the Windigo Special. Whats correct? For what period?
    I write all this BS only as my explanation to the debate at hand. Old race cars had many lives and identities, all of which were correct for the time. They were changed weekly to adapt to the new technology of the day. A correct restoration of a race car is only a snap shot in time. One doesn't own "A" car, they own a car with many faces. In the case of Toms car, I would keep the Devin body (I will slap myself for saying that) with the car so future generations have a choice what the car should be. Multiple identities to me only means added value down the road and another page in the history books. Uncovering ALL the history only makes the car more interesting and desirable.

    Dave
     
  18. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    Kenneth

    This pretty much sums it up in my opinion.

    If I take a new Ferrari/Chevy/Yugo and put a custom made body on it, no matter what style, no matter when in time, it's no longer an original car UNLESS the original manufacturer officially recognizes it as one of "theirs". A 250 GTE with a GTO body is not a GTO. It's a recreation.

    Fisher made bodies for GM under an agreement with GM, so all those cars are GM's. Ferrari had Pininfarina (et. al.) make their bodies and they are Ferraris. Jim's car, while not "officially" a Ferrari at first, was adopted by the company, legally wears Ferrari badges and is a genuine Ferrari.

    Ken
     
  19. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155

    And that is exactly the kind of attitude that Enzo himself seemed to always follow.

    Yet, this kind of attitude will also drive the Ferrari purist crazy and often result in you or your car being treated as outcasts.



    Terry
     
  20. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    Kenneth

    Yes!!! LOL

    Actually, all configurations you mentioned will be equally incorrect, as none will be strictly original. Your finished car will be one of several that share a past history. In this particular case I agree with you that you make whichever version you are happiest with and not worry about "correctness".

    Ken
     
  21. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    Dave Helms
    Its a timeless debate with no wrong answer unless the playing field is narrowly defined. "not worry about "correctness" Define "correctness"! The definition of "correctness" in this field of play would take up mutiple type written pages of text. Ethics has nothing to do with restoration, only sales.

    Dave
     
  22. PaulC

    PaulC Formula 3

    Feb 11, 2003
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    Paul
    Was the time on your post random or freaky coincidence?
     
  23. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    Dave Helms
    ??
     
  24. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
    5,936
    Central NJ
    Arlie,

    An interesting example is the old James Cagney car. It was originally built as a 250 Boano. Mr. Cagney sent it back and had Scaglietti and had it put into the California Spider production line to recieve a new body. The car has sold several times in the lasdt 10 years. It sells for more than a Boano but less than a Cal Spider.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  25. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    Kenneth
    0846. LOL

    Ken
     

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