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The OFFICIAL Vintage ethics debate thread!

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Horsefly, Aug 1, 2006.

  1. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    You talk about 0627 GT. Owner was Roberto Perucchetti of Varese, Italy. I own the old documents. I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that Cagney actually ever owned it and that he sent it back to Modena for rebody into a California Spider. This is a typical and wonderful made up story which doesn't get any better, even if it is being repeated forever. I have carefully researched this car's history for a past owner, no James Cagney involved at all!
    Marcel Massini
     
  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Jim, is right. This car, and others like it, should be whatever the current owner wants it to be.

    Remember, a car is "original" only once, the day it leaves the factory.

    IMNSHO, the Pebble Beach "originality" factor has gotten way out of hand. It is time for the pendulum to swing the other way.

    As much as I love seeing the cars on the lawn at Pebble, I get as much pleasure seeing a 914 that an aircraft engineer shoehorned a V8 into at Crystral Cove. The cars at Pebble are beautiful, but so is the engineering of some of the custom jobs at CC.

    Who really cares whether the oil lines went this-a-way instead of that-a-way? What really counts is having a cool looking car.

    Dale
     
  3. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    Priceless! On my page it shows as 07:46

    Dave
     
  4. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    There is NO such thing as a "Pebble Beach originality factor". For the Ferrari classes at Pebble the judging rules and guidelines of the Ferrari Club of America and the IAC/PFA International Advisory Council for the Preservation of the Ferrari Automobile are used. Same for the Palm Beach Cavallino Classic in Florida. Check it out on www.cavallino.com

    Marcel Massini
     
  5. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    You're right, of course. I guess that I was referring more one of the main sources of the current fixation on originality. :)

    In fact, it would make for an interesting article for someone to trace how we got to where we are today. More specifically, the influence of those who restore these cars for living have on the rules. :) :)

    Dale
     
  6. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
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    William Denoyelles
    Intersting topic this, for someone like me who follows historic racing here in UK.
    What is ethical, what is not? What is genuine, and what is fake?
    Let me say first that anyone who try to pass a replica, continuation, recreation, copy, etc... for an original is a fraud, who does it most of the time for financial gain.
    Having say that, we have here in Europe, a massive resurgence in historical racing, where there are not enough cars available, or at least at a reasonable price. Plus some historical cars are kept as investment, and not raced.
    To keep a 50s, 60s or 70s car racing year after year, you have to keep working on it all the time, replacing bits, sourcing new parts and updating it to keep it competitive (and safe!). After a few seasons, most cars don't have anything 'original' on them.
    A friend of mine who spanners a Lotus 18 for a private entrant, tells me that there is now almost nothing original in the car. The chassis was bent and replaced in the 60s, the bodywork was redone entirely after a shunt, the gearbox is now a 25, even the original Climax engine threw a rod once, got patched up and now replaced by a Hall & Croswhaite copy. So there is nothing original, but the car is still accepted as genuine, because (I quote), there is "continuity".
    There was a famous case a few years back, when Middlebridge bought the Bentley Old Number One from Hubbard for £10 millions, only to sue him soon after, claiming that the car was not the original one. Of course it was not! It couldn't be! Old Number One went over the banking at Brooklands, had a change of chassis/body, was later upgraded with a 8L engine, etc...
    But the judge still say it was original, since it has received all the alterations necessary to keep a racing car working and there was 'continuity'.
    It all comes down to money, really. If someone spend $1 million to buy a Ferrari GTO for example (I don't know if you can!), he wants to preserve its value by proving it's a real one, and everyone's else is a fake. He will probably be a bit more carefull if he races it, and certainly don't want to dice in a race against a GTO Replica that cost 1/4 of the price, driven by a chap who is not so conscious about keeping it intact!
    The FIA decision to now accept replicas/recreations/continuations in historical racing,was received by a huge outcry from genuine historical cars owners and investors/speculators and relief from people who just want to get on with their racing.
    Lola started a continuation series of their famous T70 MKII, Chevron is following suit, Pur Sang in Argentina built Bugatti 35B and 51, and there is more in the pipe.
     
  7. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    You can't have it both ways!!! You either put your vintage car in a museum and it will retain it's original parts as a statue of a car, or you drive it because it's a car and it will lose it's original parts over the expanse of time. I think the "anti-garage queen" faction better get a grip on the value of a truly original car, and the vintage racers need to get a grip on what constitutes an original car. They are diametrically opposing religions.

    Ken
     
  8. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    11,352
    If someone has a problem with Jim's P4/5, could they please explain their position?

    Both the Enzo and P4/5 were designed by Pininfarina and are in the same time period (within 5 years easily). These are really the two standards that I say must be met for a modern car rebody. A car that meets this should never been frowned upon imo.

    As far as vintage, it gets hard. Many of the original bodies on the cars were disgarded due to damage during races. Some of the cars would frequently go through new bodies til the end of their racing careers. As long as the most recent body was the one used at the end of its career (whether 5 or 10+ years from new), I'm fine with that.

    Street car rebodies done by the same designer and within the same time period are okay with me, just like Jim's. Anything else isn't imo. Even having a 250gto rebody in the same time period done by somoene else is a replica (not Scaglietti/Bizzarini).
     
  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    Mentioned earlier already:
    Automobile collecting is changing its fundamental nature from that of a hobby to that of an antiquarian activity, focused on distinctions relating to make, model, condition, originality, provenance, etc. and is rapidly approaching the arena of connoisseurship. The single biggest variable causing valuation differences among identical cars is object quality. Quality, in turn, may be broken into two elements: originality and condition. Of these two elements, much use has been made of condition criteria while relatively less has been made of objective criteria for originality. That such is so is ironic, as IT IS HISTORICAL CONTEXT WHICH IS THE ONLY BASIS FOR THE SIGNIFICANCE AND VALUE OF A COLLECTIBLE CAR. Were this not true, modern reproductions would command the same value as authentic objects. Indeed, collectible objects, as well as fine art, are relics from their period of origination that have traveled through time to the present, importing with them the zeitgeist, the regional flavor and the technical and production ethos of their creators. Therefore, it is axiomatic that aging, wear and tear and other natural deterioration is the visible evidence of that journey through time and becomes the defining property of authenticity. Indeed, every dent and blemish would tell a story were we able to read it.

    Through the process of restoration, cosmetic aging can be reversed, returning the car to the simulacrum of originally built newness. Paradoxically, such restored condition comes at the expense of sacrificing whatever visible evidence of authenticity was still impounded in the object. While there are many instances where restoration is indicated, no automobile, however meticulously restored, resides on the same plane as the miraculously preserved, wholly authentic automobile. We have only to examine the consistent premium such unmolested cars achieve at auction.

    If properly performed, restoration resets the object’s clock, allowing it to start over without a past, an immigrant to the modern world. However, several problems arise. The “zero time” look makes the object visually indistinguishable from the cunningly fabricated replica. The introduction of false patination offers no solution, as not only may it be applied to the above mentioned replica, but it also creates a fabricated and fictitious past for the historical automobile; and objects so treated are inherently dishonest. In the future, we can expect more insidious authenticity issues to deal with, as modern reproductions of old cars naturally age and patinate. Like sleeper agents-in-place, these cars may be passed off as good citizen restored authentic cars, or even miraculously preserved unmolested originals.
    Marcel Massini
     
  10. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    Central NJ
    Marcel,

    Can you clarify your response regarding the "Cagney" car? Was the rebody done during the Cal Spider production run or was it done more recently?

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  11. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    NO, NOT done during the Cal Spider production. MUCH MUCH later. The whole thing is fraud! I have said it many times but some owners/sellers/buyers just don't want to listen the facts. The usual story. Too many $$$ involved. Once they see the $$$ they forget everything else. Others know what due diligence really is.
    Marcel Massini
     
  12. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Interesting observations, as usual. Does this mean that, as Joni Mitchell sang, "we are paving paradise and putting up a parking lot." Is this whole thing moving from a bunch of car guys to people who collect Picassos?

    I'd also like to hear your take on American v. European collectors. We Yanks have a rep for customizing cars (and motorcycles) even when new, while fans in Europe tend to keep them more original.

    Finally, what about race cars? Because there is a limited pool of original race cars, what will be the impact of all this on historic racing? When I was at Mt. Tremblant recently for the Ferrari Historics, a rough guess is that there was roughly $80 to $90 million dollars worth of cars on the track. Trust me, I applaud those who race these cars, but will we be seeing less and less of this as they go up in value? Indeed, as I was writing this, I get an email from Bill Noon about a competition Daytona being offered for 1.5 million Euros! That's a lot of money for an old race car.

    Dale
     
  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    A genuine comp Daytona for sure is worth today US$ 2 M and up.
    Marcel Massini
     
  14. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    With these cars costing millions of dollars, and with only the extremely wealthy being able to afford them, why do so many look down upon replicas cars? Isn't that the same as looking down on somebody simply because they are NOT rich and therefore can NOT afford to play the game? Sounds like good old fashioned snobbery to me.
     
  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Horsey, as usual, you don't know when to quit, do you? Your original premise is worth debating, but bringing up class warfare makes this whole thing a waste of time. After all, we are talking about Ferraris aren't we?

    Dale
     
  16. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Exactly my point. With these cars becoming more and more valuable and racing being racing, how many collectors are going to be willing to race these cars?

    Dale
     
  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    In the Ferrari historic challenge in Europe and USA there are plenty of extremely valuable cars being actively raced. In USA you can see guys like Ed Davies, Lawrence Stroll, Tom Price, Chuck Wegner, Jim Fuchs and many many more seriously racing their super expensive historic Ferraris. No big deal. It's only money. Have a look at page 194 of the factory publication "Racing Activities 2005" which lists no fewer than 40 different drivers/collectors in USA in last year's challenge. Tom Price's GTO is a genuine car and worth probably US$ 15 M.
    Marcel Massini
     
  18. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    Class warfare? Seems to me that anybody who can afford one of those custom made 250GTO replicas that cost a few hundred thousand dollars is pretty high up the class ladder already.
     
  19. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    Apples and oranges. A Fiero with crappy Ferrari style body panels is completely different than a Ferrai based GTO recreation. (The former is pure masturbation by the owner, while the latter is only 1/3 masturbation.)

    Racing is expensive and comes in lots of levels. For amatures there is something for everyone.

    Poor people can do lawn mower racing and have a three figure budget (well, low 4's maybe). It's a viable sport believe it or not. Autocross costs more because of the travel, the car and tires, but you can do that on an average income if you have the desire.

    When you get into Formula Fords or advanced carting, the money starts building up. Obviously the Ferrari Challenge is near the top of the expense ladder for non-pros. Historic Ferrari racing IS the top I would think. So don't think it's a snob thing at all. It's just something available to those lucky enough, and with the desire to participate in.

    Arlie, maybe you should organize a replica Ferrari racing program for the Fiero/Datsun based cars!

    Ken
     
  20. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Simply ignore this guy! Arlie, Horsefly, or whoever this "person" in Arkansas really is still refuses to identify himself and fill out the profile properly. In any case, he must be seriously frustrated.
    Marcel Massini
     
  21. Bill Sawyer

    Bill Sawyer Formula 3

    Feb 26, 2002
    2,108
    Georgia
    Fisher Body is--and was in the 50s--owned by GM. Who is Smith?

    I respect what Jim has done with P4/5 and love his attitude as expressed in a previous post, but I suggest an experiment. Horsefly should buy a new, 'in the wrapper' F430 and have his local Arkansas body shop rebody it as an updated, modernized Pontiac Fiero; then see if it will be allowed to be displayed next to P4/5 in Monterey.

    It's silly, of course, but it demonstrates that the nature of the project, who does the work and the attitude of Ferrari and the Ferrari world toward it make all the difference. Is this behavior elitist? Does it discriminate against unknown artisans? Does it set a standard for taste that is not all-encompassing? Surely it does.

    It's time to get over it and move on.
     
  22. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    First off, when I said REPLICA, I did NOT mean a kit car. I was referring to the high class replicas such as the Beard fantasy 250 GTO spyder and some of the other excellent recreations that come out of the independent shops in Italy. These cars can't even be compared with a Fiero kit car. They are of totally new construction and feature vintage Ferrari power. Yet they still have no true connection to an authentic original factory car.

    Marcel is obviously the frustrated one. He continuely worries about WHO I am, even though I told him exactly who I was and where I am located in a PM. Perhaps he wants my full legal name and social security number for strange reasons unbeknownst to me?

    (P.S. to Marcel: Ferrarichat moderator MarkPDX has stopped by my place of employment and has personally met me and fellow co-worker and F-chat member Dave Jones. Trust me, Dave, and MarkPDX,....we are real people, not alien robots sent to planet earth to discuss vintage Ferraris!)

    A.O. Smith was a company that made many of the fiberglass bodies for the Corvette during the 60s under contract with GM.
     
  23. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    Let's open up another can of worms with this one and discuss the ethics of parting out:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1985-Ferarri-400i-see-description_W0QQitemZ330014894687QQihZ014QQcategoryZ6212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Can you believe that somebody would part this car out? Parting out a bad wreck, I can understand. But this car has a bent roof and the butchers want to drag out the sawzall and hot wrench. I'm sure that there were plenty of SWBs and GTEs and others that were parted out back in their day because they were "too far gone" to fix up. When will the butchers learn?
     
  24. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    This car was bodied before 1960 as a California.
    It sat for a year on the dock in New York before it came to AZ.
    It was bought by Phoenix resident in 1960 and given an Arizona title as a 1960 250GT Cal.
    It was bodied by Scaglietti at the same time as the early Californias and sold as a new car by the factory.
    It was in Phoenix for at least 14 years after 1970 still titled as a 1960 California.
     
  25. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    155
    Hi Marcel
    Here are a couple images of 0627.
    The black and white image was taken in 1971, 72,or 73.
    It was an old car then, with a deep bondo crack under the right headlight, so at least the second paintjob.
    It had Scaglietti badges on it.
    Of course, badges don't prove anything, but who would have been interested, or even able to put them on any car back then?
    I guess that slick Ferrari importer could have when they sold it as a new car in 1960.
    I wonder if that is where the James Cagney rumor started.
    It did have a very cramped interior.
    The color image was sent to me by Terry Maxon after he sold it to be restored, I think in the early '80s.
    I don't know when the photo was taken.



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