The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Well, if it actually matters to anyone, I have gone through everything Ferrari I have, plus Jim's documents several times, and I believe the car is entitled to be called 846...

There are a lot of "historic" cars out there that are considered real that have FAR less of the original car contained therein than 846 does....

 

I will answer your questions with a question. This ongoing debate on the existance or non-existance of 0846 can easily be settled. Forget about whatever the Ferrari site says or does not say about JG's car.

Matteo, write a simple letter to the Ferrari legal department and ask them one simple question:

Does Ferrari P4 serial number 0846 that raced at LeMans in 1967 still exist?

See if they answer YES or NO. At the very best, I'm sure their reply will be "cloudy". If it definately does still exist, then their answer will be a definate YES. But somehow I don't think that will be the answer you receive.

 

"You mentioned that Doug Nye was not satisfied with Mr. Piper’s explanation of the chassis. If I recall, Mr. Nye had the possibility that your theory was correct at a couple percent. Did Mr. Nye change his opinion of your car after speaking with Mr. Piper? "

Yes. He told me that at every occasion in the past David had given him, not always for publication but none the less, satisfactory answers. The post you refer to happened after Doug spoke to David and I.

Also see page 48

"It's a F1 engine and gearbox, though he (Jim G.) says it's not. David says it catogorically (sic) is. The chassis is the same batch as mine. (0900a and by inference David's 0900)
Nice car for sure. Not original though. David laughed about it lots."
Max Wakefield

This is additional evidence of what David had to say about the chassis he sold me, without the benefit of my research. "same batch" David commissioned three chassis to be built from the:
"1967 FERRARI 330 P4...acquired from Enzo Ferrari... original 1967 chassis drawings..." as he declared and warranted under penalty of law and that the chassis he sold me was one of these three. 0900a is built to these 1967 P4 chassis drawings (page 72). 0900 is built to these 1967 P4 chassis drawings. (P 73). 0003/0846 is not. It is a P3 chassis modified at a later date by different welders to accept a P4 engine and shorten it's wheelbase from 2412mm to 2400mm exactly as described in the "330 P3/P4 SCHEDA TECHNICA TALAIO n 0846. (Pages 66,69,75,76,78,) You cannot build a P3 Chassis from "original P4 chassis drawings".

 

Arlie
Do you ever read anything? This question is clearly answered in my June 14th, 2005 letter to Cavallino. (page 108-109 and post # 87)

 

It matters to me.
Best

 

I appreciate that, but to the vast majority of the Ferrari community, my opinions are irrelevent. The ability to spend $5000 for a proper Dino key fob or something similar is what really matters. Sad...

 

Yes, I read "anything". And it's the same thing that was sent to me 2 months ago

As another poster said earlier, it is your opinion that "written off" does not mean ceasing to exist. The question is: Does Ferrari consider "written off" as "ceasing to exist"? I think they do. Just because JG thinks they are NOT one in the same does not necessarily mean the Ferrari thinks they are NOT one in the same. Legally speaking, I think we both know that if Ferrari considers it "written off" then that means that legally speaking, it DOES NOT EXIST. In other words, if somebody says they own 0846 and injure themselves in a firey wreck and try to sue Ferrari over some alledged malfunction of the aging car, then Ferrari will have a legal OUT over any lawsuit claims because LEGALLY SPEAKING, Ferrari says the car DOES NOT EXIST. Once it has been WRITTEN OFF by Ferrari, it is going to take an act of Italian Congress to get Ferrari to ever admit the car OFFICIALLY EXISTS. The mere mention of a serial number on a web site is one thing, but to OFFICIALLY ADMIT that 0846 exists after it was OFFICIALLY WRITTEN OFF sounds like a legal pipe dream.

 

Not wanting to prolong this sillyness but....

the only surviving AAC 815 (ital reg MI79356 chassis 815/021)had an Italian demolition order placed against it on the 26th of Febuary 1952, the car however escaped the crusher,
In anybody's opinion does this mean that the 815 in Ferrari's eyes does not exist (or must be considered a replica) ?

 

Legally speaking, it does not exist. A demolition order would protect Ferrari against any further lawsuits regarding a misuse of THAT PARTICULAR car. Does anybody honestly think that Ferrari would come back and OFFICIALLY LEGALLY acknowledge the existance of that car, or any car, that it's legal department had once "written off". No way. Too many legal ramifications.

Let's say somebody miraculously discovered former Ferrari racer, serial number 08466480 that had once been OFFICIALLY written off by Ferrari, and restored that car. Then in a fit of legal lunacy, Ferrari OFFICIALLY acknowledges that the car RE-EXISTS again. Then one day, the owner drives the car at high speed into a bus load of orphans on their way to a summer camp and kills 30 children. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Ferrari will be sued by 100 different lawyers for a BILLION dollars because they legally resurrected the car.

 

Once again you are wrong. The reason I add that is because first of all he did sign that COO under those conditions and when someone declares and warrants something under the penalty of law, something that they know will be given to governmental authorities, one assumes, as I do that they are telling the truth. As it turns out David was wrong about the chassis he sold me but as it also turned out even though neither of us knew it at the time, it wasn't in his interests to be wrong so there was no financial incentive to sign anything except what he believed to be true. As I've said many times before I believe that David believed what he signed regarding the chassis he sold me.

Your statement about this being about money remains absurd. The dollar value or lack thereof of 0846 is meaningless to me, my children, or my children's children nor will it ever be. That is fact.

 

Horsefly - tabanus marginalis, you've stated your piece. Leave us in peace.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on line. This seems silly to me. If Ferrari said, "Okay, the car DOES exist" how could they be held liable if it was wrecked and restored by a private party? Ferrai in no way guarantees that the car is safe just by acknowleging that it exists! The person getting sued is the driver (and restorer if it was a mechanical/structual fault), not Ferrari. If I crash an Enzo, get it fixed by Tony down the street, and crash it again because a wheel fell off, how could Ferrari be liable???

Ken

 

Certainly you/we/others are not that naive, are you??? Companies get sued for millions of dollars every day for the flimsiest of reasons. If JG is driving his 0846 recreation down the street and one of his FERRARI supplied suspension components snaps and sends him flying into a bus load of orphans, you can easily bet that the lawyers would be foaming at the mouth and drooling with anticipation at the thought of all the money they could wring out of Ferrari.

Did you guys develope amnesia today or what?

 

Possession of an attorney is 9/10s of the law...........

 

Arlie
Once again you are quite wrong. Ferrari S.p.A. has been aware for years that 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 0846 legally exists, is owned by me, and is registered with NYS DMV vin # 0846. They were put on legal notice of this fact years ago and as they did not object in a timely fashion that issue is forever settled. How original, as Cavallino called: "the current car that carries the s/n 0846" is may still open to debate. The legal status of 0846 no longer is.

 

Thanks for the clarification..................

Ferrari has used 815/021 several times recently and every time has described it as the original AAC Tipo 815 815/021........... So if Ferrari can describe a car that had officially been scrapped as still existing why can't Jim?

A quickie search on the internet will give you the details of dozens of cars rescued from the scrap man (the TV program American hot rod even had a show about Boyd Codington restoring (and buggering up)a Chevy that had been sitting in a scrap yard) including Many important Ferrari's and Bugatti's,
Do you consider the cars Charles Brockett cut up and which were then rebuilt using the original components to be fakes?

Please remember Europeans (especially Italians) have a slightly different attitude to certain aspects of the Law (thankfully were far less litigious than the USA), do you really think that in the late 1960's/early 1970's Ferrari paid more than lip service to the legal implications of disposing of old race cars....

Regards

 

Art,
Will it be worth sharing it? The Glickophants have already decided that David doesn't know what he's talking about.
Nathan

 

Um, if a new Ferrari part causes an accident, then yes, Ferrari may be liable. That has NOTHING to do with an official blessing of Jim's car being 0846.

Ken

 

If it is not about money........
Would you consider the "R" ?

 

Come on now JG, you're really reaching. Most states would register any car with any number that you gave them. I've tracked numerous cars through various state DMVs, and the little old blue haired ladies and crystal meth smoking young girls that work in such places just go through the motions and process the paper work and collect the fee. I've got printouts from the DMV showing all sorts of cars registered with bizarre "serial" numbers that don't mean anything. And the older the car, the more likely for the numbers to mean very little. My 1966 Corvette was registered for 18 years with a serial number error and nobody ever noticed except me. But they collected the license and registration fees for 18 years with no problem. Like I always say, it's about the money. I could walk into the Arkansas DMV today and register my Fiberfab kit car as Ferrari serial number 0846 and nobody would question it at all. And since it doesn't have a serial number stamped anywhere on it EITHER, then we would have a "sticky wicket" as the British say.

 

So what your saying is that you can't knock your bails off

 

I guess what it all comes down to is this:

Could JG walk into a court of law if necessary, and PROVE that his car IS Ferrari P4 serial number 0846??????????????????????????????????????????

In my opinion,......no. Just too much murky water for a definitive judgement. And therefore, it's just a recreation and can not morally carry the identifier 0846.

But that's just my opinion which in the grand scheme of things isn't worth a "farthing".

 

Arlie

If it were to end up in an English court Jim would have to satisfy the judges that

1. major mechanical components were correct for the year and type of vehicle (serial numbers are almost irrelavent)
2. Expert witness testimony that the chassis is beyond reasonable doubt correct for a 330 P3/P4
3. Expert witness testimony that the repairs to the chassis tubes bear the same marks/welds etc as 0846 did in period, and therefore in all probability constitute the repaired chassis of 0846

Of course whether or not the Judge agrees with either my or your opinion is another matter

My opinion is of course as valid as yours and between us isnt worth the cost of a cup of coffee (farthings not accepted as they died out before I was born!)

It would of course be interesting to put all this theoretical argument before a Judge to see what the outcome would be

Regards

 

What that means is you deceitfully, fraudulently and knowingly committed fraud. Perhaps you're transferring your own misplaced guilt upon an individual who has opened the book on this vehicle in every respect.

Need I remind you this same individual is in possession of a certain Ford GT40 which, when purchased, was thought by one and all to be the most historically important LeMans racecar from the Americas? That this selfsame individual had to convince parties otherwise, that it was, in fact, not the same car, but which finished a wee bit further down the ladder?

He could have kept it a dirty little secret, but unlike you, he didn't.

'Napolis can look at his GT40 and P3/4 and know he's doing the right thing.

More importantly, he can look himself square in the eye in any mirror, anywhere, anyplace, anytime and know that he, unlike you, is the true measure of a man - time and again, he has displayed character, integrity and resolve to do the right thing. Lack of guilt allows him to do that.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that. What some of us are saying is that Mr.Piper may have been unaware of what he actually had.