The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Hey Wax, wake up and smell the coffee. My Corvette was registered for 18 years with an error in the serial number BECAUSE IT WAS OWNED BY SOMEBODY ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't think that I'm some kind of idiot that goes around fraudently registering cars do you??? Get a clue.

Within 30 seconds of examining the Corvette when I went to buy it, I noticed the flaw in the serial number and corrected the problem within days after I made the deal.

Are you guys smoking crack today?

 

Yet again, you don't know what you're talking about! "was thought by one and all " - NOT
I don't want to open another can of worms, but to quote one authority on GT40s "Back in about 1971 I was in contact with ******, of what the records said about the LM chassis numbers. He had J5 as #1, J6 as #2."
Back in 1971 !!
Nathan

 

Main Entry: write-off
Pronunciation: 'rIt-"of
Function: noun
1 : an elimination of an item from the books of account
2 : a reduction in book value of an item (as by way of depreciation)

http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=write+off&x=19&y=17

Arlie. If I write off a debt, I remove it from my current assets, and cease to call it collectable, within a reasonable time period.

That doesn't mean I give up on it, or forgive the debt. It just means, for accounting purposes, that I don't think it has "full value". Neither would the bank.

When Ferrari, or anyone else that I've ever dealt with, writes-off and asset, they simple no longer claim it has value. I have a small section of my warehouse with written-off inventory in it. It's not on the books, but if someone calls, it's still there, and I can sell it. Then, I re-enter it into inventory and out it goes, often at a reduced price/profit margin.

If Ferrari thought they could re-use any part of 0846, even after the wreck, they would write it off, and then toss it on a pile with other parts, or on a shelf, or in the back of a trailer, or wherever Ferrari stored beat up car parts. I doubt the tossed in in the metal scrap truck and sold it for $.19 a pound.

So written off and recycled are two different things now, and probably were then. Until someone at Ferrari comes out and says, "Yep, we tossed that in the trash, I saw it leave, and it went to the smelter" then there's no proof the frame ceased to exist, right?

Dave M.

Now, can we please give the 0846 is real, 0846 isn't real, a friggin' rest, at least for the weekend????

Dave M

 

Stu
I think that is just what people are saying.
He had the blasted car for 26 YEARS !! And you still think he didn't know what it was? You still think he couldn't tell a P4 chassis from a modified P3 chassis? When he had a P4 chassis sitting right next door in 0900? Give the guy some credit.
Nathan

 

Forghieri has already said that, but you won't accept it.
And by the same reasoning, until someone says "Yep, I saw it leave, and it went to the scrapyard", there's no proof that the frame continued to exist, right?
Answer these;
1. How did this chassis get out of the factory?
2. Who took it out of the factory?
3. When did they do this?
4. Have you got anyone at Ferrari who disputes that this chassis was scrapped?
5. Which scrap-yard did it go to?
6. Who took it out of the scrap-yard?
7. How did it get to Pipers?
8. How come Piper didn’t realize that he’d been tucked up with an old scrap chassis instead of the new one that he’d paid for?
Nathan

 

Nathan,

He had 0900a, 0900b, and 0900c. I don't think anyone paid much attention which was which, as they were racing.

By the time Max and Jim came calling some of the stuff was hanging from rafters in the barn, if I recall the original thread Jim G. shared, back when I was but a young lad......

Also recall that Piper's deal with Enzo when he was entrusted the P4 plans were for ONE extra frame. So I don't think he's really excited about all the glaring spotlight of scrutiny, now that the value of the cars has risen.

You guys are trying to stretch modern standards backwards in time.
You are also applying registration standards for street cars to cover factory competition cars, and that does not work very well.....Mr. G has simply managed to get one (or two) cars thru the race track gate, out onto the streets of NY.
Good for him!

As for safety and legal liability.......well, Jim G. and I recall the times when the only warranty you might have was to be in Chinetti, Sr.'s good graces.

Simpler times, that's all.

The only safety devices that came with Jim G's car, and even in my early 308GTBs were the seat belts, a fire extinguisher...............and oh yea, the driver's brain.

 

What if an other chassis is 'found', maybe a spare chassis or recreated and stamped 0846 put in the ground for a couple of years. Dug up. A newly made body, some original old parts, some newly casted.
It is very well possible you can make it a 'real' Ferrari with papers.
Will it become a legal battle? I think yes.

What would you do when your GTO is burned to the ground, ashes!
But papers saved. Recontruct a new one OR you already have a reconstruction. Would you tell in public your 10M dollar car is burned to ashes? Or don't say anything and make the new car the real one?

"Half a truth is often a great lie." (Benjamin Franklin)

 

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

 

My dad was a panel beater for the pre-war Mercedes GP team. I have had a piece from the nose of one of the cars since my dad died in 1980, and he had it for 40+ years before that. I have no idea why I kept it, and have, to this day, no idea what car it came off off. I could care less what it might be worth. I think Piper felt the same way about parts off 846 that he had and honestly feel he didn't know what he had until after Jim bought it and did a thorough study of what it actually was.

 

6000+ posts - are they all as banal as this?

Yes

I win again

 

Maybe we could take 60% of one of his better postings and re-construct it into a REAL posting?

 

Nathan, I guess I missed that.

Can you show me where he said that?

Thanks,

Dave

 

No, they aren't banal. I simply answered each and every question you posed with all the reply that was needed. In fact, there's answers to every single one of your questions on this link:

CLICK ME

After you've read it in full, go back to first post and start clicking on links.

BTW - Too bad your colleague "in the know" didn't bother to tell others about the rightful place of J5 & J6. Ford didn't know that - certainly not many an author who had it all wrong, let alone 'Napolis when he acquired his fine piece of machinery.

 

As we now have an is it or isn’t it thread for 0846...........

Could we please we agree that no matter what your opinion is we will not post "facts" along the lines of... somebody’s sisters cousins dog walker knew somebody who may have seen the car in period.............etc etc etc, if anybody wants to quote a source please name and date the quote and ensure its quoted in context.
and please don't quote any arguments that have already been discussed where there has already been a legal precedent set.
And please remember this is a discussion about a car, so NO blatant personal attacks just because somebody has a different view

Hopefully wayne and the other Mods will help enforce some civility in this debate

 

So answer these;
1. How did the chassis get out of the factory?
2. Who took it out of the factory?
3. When did they do this?
4. Have you got anyone at Ferrari who disputes that this chassis was scrapped?
5. Which scrap-yard did it go to?
6. Who took it out of the scrap-yard?
7. How did it get to Pipers?
8. How come Piper didn’t realize that he’d been tucked up with an old scrap chassis instead of the new one that he’d paid for?
Nathan

 

As indicated, read the thread. All the answers to those very questions are there.

 

So answer them then - you can't - because they' re NOT there
Go on, fill the answers in, if you can.
Nathan
This time, I win

 

I don't have time to wade through 128 pages of downloadable data, so just help us cut to the chase. Let's just start with a couple of simple questions. Who took the car out of the junkyard and when did this occur?

 

Funny, I think that everyone who is on Jim's side HAS taken the time to wade through the data.

C.

 

No 128-page .pdf here or there

Although I'm busier than a cross-eyed cat at a rat-killin'.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124012&postcount=30 - a taste from that thread regarding comings and goings of chassis

http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/251280/162464.html
Alberto looked up from the car, turned to me and said "This is a P4... Piper has ****ed it up, but if you're willing we can fix it..."
and much, much more regarding chassis's travels

http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/251280/210353.html
X-Rays, high magnification. These guys haven't ****ed around.

Just so you have a greater understanding of who said Piper ****ed it up
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/251280/216967.html
Alberto Pedretti: "Jim it's too nice to work..."

 

Well then, answer this even simpler question: Why should we believe the data from Jim, who was not there all those years ago, over Piper and numerous other people who were "on the scene" during those years?

 

Plenty of "you are there" people have shared their anecdotal history/eyewitness accounts. Read.

Out of idle curiosity; either one (or both) of you an only child? Regardless, too much "Gimme, mama" for a grown man.

If I wanted to help those unable to help themselves, I'd wear a white uniform & ugly shoes. If you can help yourself, then do just that.

 

Uhm, because Jim has picked a logical theory (I know that's foreign to you) and proven his case with 128 pages of documentation that you've never even bothered to read.

Piper has egg on his face for selling Jim a car that was worth substantially more, getting duped by a chassis builder in the process of trying to make money off of his reputation, and it also discredits him to acknowledge that he didn't even know what he was looking at after being "on the scene" for so many years.

C.

 

I have to slightly disagree. I don't think Piper knew OR CARED about what he had. I know dozens of Alfa people who have valuable parts in their garages that they had no idea they actually had until I pointed it out. A few years ago, I was invited to the home of someone who I just slightly knew, who was mainly a Healy guy. Sitting there was the oldest Alfa Giulietta spider veloce known, in poor condition, but pretty much complete. Unfortunately for me, it had been sold "as is" just a few days earlier. It had actually been sitting there for almost 20 years...