The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Jim,
I’m please to see that you recognise what Tillman is talking about, and I'm sure that you will set an example to your followers by not indulging in further insults and attempted character assassinations.
Nathan

 

Nathan

After your post, which I refuted in 126, it is obvious that not only is your, still anonymous, source not credible, but more importantly that you would cite such a source, in light of easily verifiable information, the published work of established GT 40 experts, proves once and for all that anything you post can not be taken seriously. Your continued silliness is boring. That you would post such obvious drivel is very sad. Your claim that your anonymous source knew in 1971 that J6 wasn't the Le Mans winner when the ACO records, The Ford Motor Co., and every published GT40 book didn't up until 1992 is laughable.

Once again when presented with fact you pretend that you haven't and delusionally post that 126 proves anything except that once again you've been OWNED.

 

Well, anybody?

 

Seeing as Nathan won't answer my question, I can only assume it was too hard for him, or that to answer it would prove contradictory to his previous assertions. His silence speaks volumes.

Jim, seeing as you're the only one responding to questions in this thread, perhaps you can tell me the answer to this.

Previously you have stated that there is a difference in the size of the tube used in the repair of the chassis, 0.030" if my memory is correct. Do you have the actual sizes of the original and repaired tubes available?

I only ask because I've got a theory about the repair that I would like to validate before I open it up to criticism from the masses, and I need to know what size tubing was used.

 

Are there any examples of historically significant cars the factory considers destroyed that have been accepted by the vast majority of experts as being the actual car and not a reconstruction based around found parts?

 

I presume you are referring to this question.

You're right, of course. It's too hard for me. There are no facts/information that I have on which to base an answer. And seeing as I have questioned others about their suppositions/theories I'm hardly likely to do the same. When/if any facts emerge I'll let you know.
In the meantime, I look forward to your chassis tube theory.
Nathan

 

Hi Callum

When the chassis was stripped we measured both the left side angled tubes, the ones that suffered accident damage and were repaired by Wayne Sparling (see page 99 ), and the right side angled tubes which were I believe were damaged beyond repair in the 1967 Le Mans fire and determined them to be 030" different in size and welded in at a later time by different welders. (As the P4's were no longer eligible to race there would have been no reason for Ferrari to repair 0846's chassis even though other of 0846's components, the right front and left side front and rear uprights could have been used on other cars. (612 Can Am, 712 Can Am, 512 S) .

Off the top of my head I don't remember the exact sizes of those's tubes but as part of the inspection 0846 is currently undergoing I'll get them for you, but as much of Italy is shut down for vacation it won't be until September. As I've also said many times before any credible person is welcome to inspect and measure 0846 for themselves.

Tom

The reason is simple. After following the "not standard procedures. Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way." (Page 110) Ferrari S.p.A. over four years ago, as you can clearly see from the web pages printed out on pages 111 and 112, in their sole discretion put 330 P4 Chassis 0846 in "Your (MY) Garage". As you can also clearly see they listed list the chassis number of my car as 0846 FIVE TIMES and that I've owned this car from 07/00. Ferrari S.p.A. after a "scrupulous" procedure saw no reason to list my car as "0846R" and neither do I especially in light of the massive amount of public disclosure I've made over many years to them and everyone else. As an side 330 P4 Chassis 0846 is still parked in "Your (My) Garage" on their web site, as are photos of it undergoing restoration.

I also in no way dispute that 0846 as it exists today is any more or less than I've disclosed that I believe it to be, nor have any problem with your use of the word "reconstructed".

Tony
I certainly believe that there is much more of 0846's original chassis in my car than in this car which recently ran in the Le Mans Classic. Terry has cited one or two other cars as well.
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What are you getting all uptight about? Wax made an incorrect statement, and all I did was correct that statement.

No reflection on you, but NOT EVERYONE thought this. If you want to PM me stating that you will not reveal who made this statement I'll tell you. I don't make statements that can't be substantiated!! But, as you very well know, some people do request anonymity.
Stuff gets printed in books, magazines and then gets repeated by others. Sometimes there are people who doubt the information, but don't always have the facts to prove otherwise. But eventually the facts emerge and even the experts sometimes have to change their minds.
For years the BB/LM that ran at Le Mans in 1975 was said to be 18095, because one expert said it and others repeated it. For many years I didn't believe that 18095 was correct but didn't have the facts to prove it. Now I have the facts and the correct information will be published in my BB/LM book.
About J6 - not EVERYONE believed it, but you proved it. So what's to get so uptight about? Chill out a bit
Nathan

 

Isn't this really the point we shouldn't forget, that whether you agree with Napolis' interpretation of the evidence or not, you (and any potential buyer, seller, inspector, registerer, etc) knows absolutely EVERYTHING about this car and chassis that Napolis knows.

Therefore, it simply does not matter what you call his car, whether you put an R beside the chassis number or not, Napolis has ensured that the MARKET (and everyone else who will listen), knows exactly what he owns.

People might disagree with Napolis' interpretation of the weld histories on his chassis. But those same people should NOT pretend that he is somehow "trumping up" what he owns, because he clearly is not.

Indeed, it does a disservice to Napolis and his incredible openness on the build history of this car to demand "facts" that were clearly lost in the piles of racing rubble that accumulated outside the back of the Ferrari factory during the 1970s.

Is it really so incredible to imagine that when the suits at Ferrari HQ listed a car as "written off" or "destroyed", that the mechanics on the ground floor simply tossed the thing on a pile of scrap, knowing that they could still cut things off of it, "just in case"? Which is more likely, mechanics scrupulously obeying the cock-eyed "order to destroy" by dilligently cutting a frame into 1" pieces, or saying to themselves, "might need that someday, cut it in half and toss it over there".

Before anyone starts claiming that there is no "proof" that this ever happened, I would first remind us all that "proof" is a very subjective thing. Using a more accurate term, I submit that there is plenty of "EVIDENCE" that this is precisely what happened to this chassis.

In my mind, the weld histories themselves tell a great story, and they provide pretty potent evidence that this chassis is indeed 0846. People may disagree. But don't simply attack this evidence by demanding a non-existent tape-recording or photograph of some ferrari mechanic smiling and posing next to the chassis after it was "written off"!

Anyone who is willing to publish a 158 page history on the rebuild of this car is obviously not hiding anything. Let's not pretend that he is.

CHEERS to you, Napoli

 

These are very good points. These are old racecars. Some have more intense histories/originality than others. 0846 may not be as complete as a P4 never raced or crashed (does such a P4 exist?). I don't quite accept that it is a replica as such. It's a good example of a grandpa's axe (as are most old racecars to varying degrees). I think it is in a similar predicament to Nigel Webb's Hawthorn Long nose D-Type. It is a heavily restored vehicle (using a good mix of original and newly manufactured parts); perfectly understandable in light of its early history.

My 2 cents.....

 

I realy hope this is settled one day.
If every item in the Jim's document were proved true,some would still want the "r" designation..


To the doubters..


Could you please state what you do believe? ..that way we could get down to the nub so to speak.

The chassis
*********
The chassis does indeed look like it was altered to p4 specs.
Why?
To lead us and Jim into a grand debate?
All these alterations were extra work ..what is the motivation?
Adding the above and damage and repairs that tie in with historic incedents.
Is JG setting up a big scam?,because this is the only thing that makes sense outside of it originaly being a P3 chassis..
Is that what you believe?
If the chassis WAS deliberetly made up to look like a P3 conversion BEFORE JG got it,Who did it? and why?

Nobody likes to make more work for themselves and altering or repair anothers can be time cosuming and frustrating.
This leads me to believe the P5 chassis WAS built from scratch ..it's just too differant.
If somebody was to hand you the blueprints of a P5 chassis and you had the
P4 chassis sitting in front of you, ..would you not start from scratch?

I'd imagine the extra money in wages(paying the metalworkers,welders etc) would lead you to using fresh materials..

The engine
*********
Do you really believe it's F1?

The Gearbox
*********
What is you opinion on the casting ribs?

etc ,etc

 

I have a question regarding the original builders of the chassis. What company built the chassis, or did Ferrari do it in house?

 

Thanks for that Jim, gives me time to look up the standards that were in use at the time. Although expecting Italians to follow standards might be a bit optimistic

 

It was an outside co. David said he used the same co. to make the batch of three chassis 0003/0846,0900,and 0900a. In a recent FORZA he stated that, I believe Mike Parkes arranged this for him in the early 70's. The Co. is named in the Forza article. Off the top of my head it's name is "Macura & ??" (sp.)

 

Could it have been - Manicardi e Messori?
Nathan

 

Hi.
I think that Vaccari & Bosi built #0856 #0858 #0860 (the 3 P 4:s) so I assume they built the other chassies as well.

Vaccari & Bosi have built chassis for Ferrari from 1957...and still do it to this day. http://www.vaccariebosi.com/#

Best: Staff.

 

Uhhhh has anyone attempted the obvious? Contact the original builder of these Piper chassis's, track down the old fogies who actually did the work and see if any of them remember anything about using a cast-off junkyard Ferrari chassis as a shortcut starting point?

It would seem likely that at least some of the people who actually built these chassis would still be around and have some memories of the activities.



Terry

 

Interesting, because the web site says they started building Ferrari cahssis in 1956, and Gilco (now Trafiltubi) says they built Ferrari chassis into 1958...

 

Yes we have tried to track them down and have come to believe that they have passed on.

I have come across people, who, for a price, have offered to share their remembrances, one's they intimated I'd be very happy with. I declined.
Terry, IMO, in the end it comes down to the chassis and that is something that speaks for itself.

 

Gentlemen, even without Mr Skett's stylish interjections, this has become far too personal for my liking.

So here are just a few things that may add to the sum total.

1. Does David Piper physically assemble and maintain his cars personally, so that he would know every detail of every variation between them?

No; I've been to his workshop behind his house - it consists of a 1-car garage which contained his 250LM in the process of being stripped, and a 2-car extension which contained at that time his Matra MS650 (since sold) with chassis/body '0900a' hanging above it, and 0900 being prepared for a race meeting.

In photographs of Piper's cars in recent years, you will see mechanics in green overalls and a green van/transporter which is not Piper's - they are from a race-preparation/restoration shop which did all the work. On the day I visited, Piper was in his house, and two of the green-overalled chaps were doing the work (and Piper was keen that I shouldn't talk too much to them, as he was paying by the hour).

At that time he also owned a Porsche 917, (which was parked at the side of the house), a GTO-bodiied SWB which was on a trailer on his front drive, a Lola T70, the P3/4 he later sold to Jim, a P1 s/n 0824, and a P2 s/n 0836 which were all somewhere else in storage. The P3/4 was stored with a friend, and hadn't been run for a few years.

The body clips from 0900 were lying on the back lawn, and had '0860' in faded paint on the inside.

As Marcel has said, Piper acquired the supposedly irrepairable remains of 0824, and now has two identical immaculate cars bearing versions of that identity!

2. Paul S has posted that many Ferrari tube-frame racing chassis were sub-contracted to Menotto & Manicardi (sp?), though I believe the single-seaters were built on Ferrari's own surface plate; and bodies were variously made by one of the carrozzeria (sp?) ali-basher bodyshops in Modena and Maranello.

3. There are plenty of photos of Ferrari's scrapheap in the 1950s and 60s, and of old engines lying up alleyways and at the back of stores buildings. 'Written-off' or 'dismantled' are not the same as 'destroyed'; and we have had the facts about Tom Meade and the Modena scrapyards in previous posts. One of the present-day Ferrari restorers in the UK told me that he's sure there are still more 'salvaged' bits in cellars and workshops round there.

4. Piper owned and traded 0854 and 0858 in the late 60s, keeping at least one spare engine and gearbox and lots of suspension bits; acquired the spyder body of 0860 as worn at Brands Hatch in 1967; and then bought all the leftover bits from Ferrari as pictured earlier. He'd (or rather his team)made moulds and quite a few GRP bodies from 0854's ali body.

So he had enough bits for one complete car, less chassis, and various other bits - what did he do? He commissioned a couple of chassis from his contacts in Modena and a body from 'Old Man Allegretti', and another chassis and some more body bits for luck..........then what could he make out of it all? He put the best engine and gearbox in one chassis with 0860's body and has kept it as 0900; he put some new body bits, together with some GRP sections, on a second chassis, which is 0900a that he sold to Max Wakefield. And then he had another engine which he'd got from Ferrari and was told was an old F1, and the complete Allegretti body, and some gearbox he'd also been told was F1 and certainly wasn't a P4 box (whatever number Ferrari may have assigned to it) and put them together to make what he called 'my P3'.

But would he have personally measured the frame tube sizes and distortion of all three frames he'd ordered, to check they were really all-new? No; they looked OK under a coat of shiny black paint. But Jim's guys did............and what they found was a used frame that matches 0846's race history, but not the historic races of Piper's 'my P3'.

And would Piper have studied all the photos of F1 and P4 engines in history books to note the different casting ribs, or checked the block height against all the known P4s and F1s? No.

And did he look out an old magazine that showed the gearbox in the first P3 when it was unveiled, to check that it was or wasn't an F1 box? No.

David Piper is : A) a racing driver, and B) a car-dealer; he's not a historian.

Another $0.02.............


Paul M

 

Stu
Ferrari produced 81 cars in 1956 which rose very quickly to 183 in 1958, so it would appear that there was a period of crossover in chassis manufacturers.
Nathan

 

IMO a very valuable $0.02.

 

What an interesting story. Thanks Paul M for your .02 worth. I'm sorry to see so much bickering over these cars. I'm glad that they are still around. I'll drool over your car if its only a "replica" or a "real" one. Notice the "_" it's only an opinion from one to another. If these were not Ferraris the car could be rebuilt around just an engine or just the chassis or bits of several together. Nobody would squabble about the details. I know the details do matter to some and I appreciate the details some in this hobby or profession know. If your car is certified by Ferrari fine, if its not its too bad. I know the value of these cars can be unimaginable and again to me, one who will never own a priceless piece of rolling Ferrari history, I'm glad to see them all. I know of a Le'Mans Triumph built around an original wheel. That started the rebuild and after many years many more parts where found. The details escape me but I haven't heard from the experts dissing that car. I know it wasn't a Ferrari but it was a racecar and it finished ahead of many Ferraris at the same race. That should make if more valuable IMO. Thanks for keeping any and all old racecars running!!!!!!

Philip

 

Nobody knows who saved AAC 815\021 from the crusher, does that mean that's a fake?

 

A Nigerian cashier's check certainly LOOKS valid to all parties concerned, UNTIL it is verified to be just another bogus piece of paper.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and one UNverified hunk of chassis plus another UNverified hunk of chassis do not equal two VERIFIED hunks of chassis.