The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

No one is saying that Piper's memories are non-credible. What he remembers is probably perfectly accurate-- the argument is that he didn't know what he had.

He probably remembers ordering, and getting, three P4 chassis. He wouldn't remember building them himself, since he didn't build them. As someone else pointed out, all painted nice and fresh and black, it would be hard to tell the difference.

 

Here's a question for those that don't believe Jim's car is 0846. What would it take to convince you that it is indeed the remains of 0846? What revelation would have to come forth to once a for all answer your doubts?

Here's a scenario as to how the frame got from the junkyard. The original chassis builder hears that the car is being stripped for usable parts and that the chassis will be thrown away. Either they ask Ferrari for it or they retrieve it from the trash. Either way they have what everyone considers a junk chassis. For whatever reason, they wanted their work back, maybe to see how well it held up to racing abuse or whatever reason, they get it back. Sometime later they get the Piper order and decide to use 0846's chassis to fill out his order instead of building a new one, time and money saved.

I really think the crux of this debate, that seems to get glossed over, is that 0846 was a P3 modified to accept a P4 engine, which is exactly what Jim has. Answer that question, please, explain where did it come from, if not the remains of 0846?

 

Are we suggesting that Piper didn't notice that ONE of his P4 chassis was actually a cobbled up P3 with a different engine mounting configuration? That seems about as far fetched as anything I've heard so far. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that one of the 3 P4 chassis that Piper received was a highly modified P3 chassis, and then turn right around and say that he "never noticed" the obvious differences. What's up with that?
Perhaps he did notice, but as others have suggested, he really didn't car. He was building cars, not collectables.

But that STILL doesn't source the point of origin for the chassis under question.

 

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but since this is the "debate" thread, I have a question (which I don't think has been answered yet):

Suppose that Piper ordered and received three NEW P4 chassis which had been built using the blueprints supplied by Enzo. This would make sense, wouldn't it? That the three new chassis had nothing to do with 0846? OK, then. Piper gets his hands on a P3 engine and wants to install it into one of his new P4 chassis - he does not have a spare P3 chassis sitting around. So he modifies one of the new P4 chassis to accept a P3 engine. Cut, cut, weld, weld - presto, it fits. Something happens. The engine blows up. He needs the P3 engine for another car. Whatever. So he changes the chassis back to P4 specs. Cut, cut, weld, weld - presto, it's a P4 chassis again. Only now it has evidence that it once was a P3 chassis.

Is there a reason that this scenario is totally impossible?

I would be "pleased as punch" if Jim's car does indeed have the chassis from 0846 in it, I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Just asking.

 

Pages 63-79 which include photo's of 0846 (P3/P4), 0844 (P3), 0856 (P4), 0900 (P4)and 0900a (P4) chassis prove that, that it is impossible.

 

What Wayne said...and read slower Arlie, you might get blisters if you read too fast.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

The bottom line is we don't have absolute answers, and NEVER WILL. Why not just drop the whole damn thing once and for all??

 

Please ... I have worn show laces that are becoming more interesting

Jim's car is a bitsa or varying ages, and unless more evidence crops up nothing has changed. Jim has a belief and is trying to prove it ... move along people, nothing more (ie. no new evidence) to see here.

Looking forward though, to the reclothing of both P Ferraris ... if we are lucky enough to see this.
Pete

 

Sitting side by side, how noticable is the difference between the P3/4 chassis and a P4? a 12mm difference in the wheelbase is barely 1/2 in, so, could a casual observer pick up the change or could it be overlooked?

 

Actually, I can think of 3-4 "bitsa's" that have not had the level of BS surrounding this car.

I am not sure even in face of evidence what it is.

There are GTO's, TR's, D-Jags, Porsches and non-12 Ferraris with FAR less originality. Having been very involved with several cars which had histories which were NOT as presented by sellers and "historians", I am very much a skeptic. Legal action is sometimes the only way to shut people up, especially if they are claiming they have "the real xxxx".

Some of the buyers of these "problem children" do not want the ridicule of fine folks[you know who you are], and never press the issue. At least Jim has the integrity to discuss the issue.

Why don't some of you go find the real 0720/0750, or count how many 118/121LM's are out there, or tally the 250LM's, or.... obligatory smilie

 

David

Reread pages 63 through 79 of the 0846 papers and reread Macca's post 243. Keep in mind that Paul M./Macca was the one who first realized exactly what the gearbox that was in in my car is and what it is not (P3 NOT F1) and PROVED it when thinking about what he wrote in post 243.
About the gearbox:
Replica Paul was wrong.
Max Wakefield was wrong.
David Piper was wrong both verbally to Max and in writing in the auction catalogue.
Paul M. was right.
The Revelations in post 242 are very interesting and they are,at least to me,
revelations as to who owns the Green Transporter and that David's mechanics are independent contractors being paid by the hour. The description of David's shop and the procedures are very interesting. Unlike other's who have opined Paul M. was there and saw this with his own eyes.
Dr. Stu and PSK I think you may be wrong. This in new.

And Callum, you have realized something VERY important. Something I'll have to check out. Something I for one can check out. The Technical Data Sheets Teach us many things. One of them is that 0850 and 0854 were P3 chassis manufactured at the same time as 0844 and 0846 even though they weren't completeted until a later time as 412P's.

"Same Batch..." Hummm where have we heard that before??? Think the chassis tubes of 0854 mich. up with 80+ % of 0846's chassis?

 

Okay Jim, Macca's post has revelled that Piper is not as hands on as many thought, thus I can perfectly understand that he may not have known about the chassis differences ... but find it hard to believe that his mechanics do not talk (can we contact them?). This is the new stuff (?).

I do though think that the gearbox situation is not as important as you are making out. Does it really matter what gearbox is in the car (other than proving Piper is NOT the Ferrari P expert that some think) ... gearboxes get changed more than some change their underpants. I thus assume the importance of this discovery is that we are disproving Piper's knowledge (? ... am I right?).

I could not find Callum's post so assume we are going to do some sort of chassis comparison between your 2 cars ... not sure that this is going to prove? We need to some how age the metal, not measure it. My understanding is that you cannot determine the age of metal ???

What you are more likely to be able to do is maybe find something inside a chassis tube that can be aged ... mold, I don't know but since it was welded up and could not get out and thus could be used to accurately age the chassis manufacture time ... maybe even particles in the air?

Now I know I have gone insane
Pete

 

This padded cell is geting crowded

When did they stop using leaded paint?

 

Totally. The only thing the gearbox issue proves is that David, Max, and Replica Paul aren't the "Ferrari P" experts some think they are.

Lee however has put his finger on, as Bob Dylan said: "What's really wrong."
0846 had been stripped bear and the photo's have been published. Everyone
can see and decide for themselves. The chassis Lee mentioned remain IMHO dirty little secrets. When they roll across the lawn at various concours I've yet to encounter their owners handing out 120+ pages of disclosure to anyone who's interested.

" I saw your car at the FCA meet last year, Nice Job!
I get to work on a fair amount of historic race cars, and most of them have some kind of dubious history. Engines were swapped, chassis plates swapped, frame members with chassis numbers replaced. Numbers restamped. Cars were crashed and bodies replaced.

As far as I am concerned, after reading all of your documentation and seeing the car, It is the real deal. Enjoy it, and don't let the doubters get you down."

 

http://www.davegriffithsracing.co.uk/aboutus.htm

I didn't post that, OK?


Paul M

 

Jim G and other debaters,

There is something beginning to bother me about a part of the theory. This is emphasized by Paul M's post. Mr. Piper called 003/0846 'My P3'. In previous pictures he had #23 on it (Daytona winning number). Is this just an odd coincidence or does the theory need revision? Could Mr. Piper have known that this was a P3 chassis but not known that it was 0846? Is it possible that Mr. Piper received the chassis from a different source than 0900 and 0900a? Maybe the spares package purchased from Ferrari? It sounds like Ferrari had a bunch of P stuff in storage, maybe they welded up the damage on 0846's chassis and threw it in with the rest of the stuff and labeled it a spare chassis rather than 0846. This could explain how it left the factory and why Mr. Piper was not aware that it was 0846 yet called it a P3, P3/4.

I realize that this theory contradicts Mr. Piper's written statements but it would explain the 'my P3' comments and some other bits.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Art S.

 

I think the reason that David called 0003/0846 "My P3" was because at one time it had a "P3" carborated motor in it. That's the reason he used a hump molded off 0854's rear deck. It is interesting to note that while 0846's P3/P4 chassis can accept either a P3 engine or a P4 engine without reconstruction, 0900, or 0900a's chassis which remain P4 chassis can not.

Once again reread pages 63-79. THE FRONT ENGINE MOUNTS are the key and the ones on the chassis in my car 0846 have been modified exactly as described in the "330 P3/P4 SCHEDA TECHNICA" on page 63 and my car is the ONLY P CAR EXISTANT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN.

Best

 

David Piper sold his P2 0836 when he bought 0854 at the end of 1967; he seems to have bought it back in about 1987 according to Barchetta:
http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0836.330P2.htm

which is when I first saw him race it in historic racing. It still had the 2-cam 4400cc motor from 1966-67 then.

In about 1991 he fitted the 'un-numbered spare' 4-cam 4000cc 330P2/330P3 motor. I think he told me it was part of the package he got from Ferrari, but I don't know when that was, so it could well have been in 003/0846 since the early 1970s.

He got his first version of 365P 0824 running in about 1990, when it was featured in a magazine I have, using motor 0822 according to Barchetta; then got the 'other' 0824 built up using the motor from 0836 in about 1998.

So I don't know whether Piper got all three of his commissioned P4 chassis at the same time from the same contractor, but IIRC he said he did. According to Doug Nye's magazine article about 0900, he only had Enzo's permission for one chassis!

One thing that interests me is that the 3 types of engine (2-cam 4400cc, 4-cam 4000cc 24-valve, 4-cam 4000cc 36-valve P4) are not interchangeable and the mountings are different; so as well as the changes made to one, and one only, chassis to put a P4 motor in a car that had carried a P3 motor, there must have been some chassis changes to change a P2 from a 2-cam motor to a 4-cam or vice-versa.

On the question of numbers, I don't remember seeing 003/0846 usually carrying no.23 during Piper's ownership, or 0900 either; they've carried whatever race numbers they've been given. However, 0856 usually carried no.23 when in David Clark's ownership (though as Paul S pointed out, not in the exactly correct style with coloured border as used at Daytona.)


(edit: looking through a photo album, either 003/0046 or 0900 did have no. 23 at one time, but in white numerals totally unlike the Daytona no.)

Paul M

 

I *think* it would be possible to compare the composition of the metal to determine a match, much like DNA. There is also the grain structure to consider.. tubes made & cut at the same place/same time would probably share some similarities under a microscope.

Of course, this is my "I stayed at a Holiday Inn" version of metallurgy but I think it would be a better shot at determining where 0846 and the other replicas actually came from. If anything, it might show a difference which would be pretty valuable even without an exact match with another P car.


-Chris

 

I have decided to use my 5,000th post on F-Chat to comment on #0846. (Damn, 5,000 posts. No wonder I need to get a life.) Sadly, this debate has become a personality contest.

On one side, you have a group who think that what Jim Glickenhaus has done is really cool. In a world full of secretive Ferrari owners, Jim did the exact opposite. By posting on F-Chat and elsewhere, he invited the world into his garage.

In the other corner, you have folks who refuse to believe that David Piper could get hoodwinked in his own garage. I know that Mr. Piper is British, but he sure gives the impression of being a wily Leprechaun (or maybe a Hobbit?). Thus, there are those who believe that there is no way that he could have sold Mr. Glickenhaus a genuine chassis instead of a reproduction (albeit a factory approved one.)

In private conversations, some of you have expressed your thoughts about this debate a lot more elegantly than this duality. But at the end of the day, the anti-Glickenhaus people refuse to believe that Mr. Glickenhaus got the better of Mr. Piper, whether deliberately or by accident.

Mr. Piper, perhaps wisely, is not speaking openly about this controversy, and the road is never ending. Depending upon your mood, you can side with one camp, or the other, all the while knowing that you cannot be proved wrong. (Hmm… does this description include me?)

My suggestion is that we take a look at the bigger picture. One downside to any official rejection of Jim’s car (from here on out I will call it #0846*) is that we, the great unwashed, will be barred from seeing his car run in the Historic races or on the lawn at Pebble and Cavallino. That’s right, those of us who have never even come close to seeing, hearing, and smelling a P3/P4 will be denied an opportunity to see a car that comes as close as many of us are going to get. Lets’ face it. This is a pretty exclusive club where nobody who owns one of the uncontested original versions of this car dares to drive their car on the highways and byways of our world right next to Yugos and Crackheads.

Another problem is that, based on what I have been told by a number of individuals (sometimes after one or two adult beverages), #0846* is not the only Bitsa out there. Yes, while this may be a shock to some of you, but some of the known “BIG” cars (including some of the biggest of the big) are not what they seem. Perhaps the best comment on this subject was made by the esteemed Gerald Roush who said that it is a safe bet that every old Ferrari has been wrecked at least once, sometimes more than once. Thus, the only thing that really counts is the car’s current condition, not what it once was.

The truth is that (feel free to hold your hands over your ears you Telaio types because what I’m about to say is adult stuff) some BIG cars have had more than 50% of their chassis destroyed and the repair was not done at the factory. Shocking, but apparently true.

Given all this, why don’t we act like adults and say that Mr. Glickenhaus’s #0846* is as good as it gets? Will the truth ever be known? I doubt it. Just like the guy in the Kingston Trio song about the MTA:

Well, did he ever return?
No, he never returned
and his fate is still unlearned. (What a pity!)
He may ride forever
'neath the streets of Boston.
He's the man who never returned.

I’m afraid that we can argue about this one forever.

Meanwhile, #0846* gets shut out of Ferrari events as a bastard child, which would be a great loss for you and I. Simply put, I don’t think that the owners of uncontested P3s and P4s need us to fight their battles for them.

But, wait a minute! Wouldn’t accepting this car open the floodgates to replica after replica? I can see it now. Some hillbilly will take a 59 Caddy, paint it red, and call it a P1/P2/P3/P4.

Well, if Mr. “Squeal Like a Pig” does as good of job as Jim Glickenhaus, I say: “Welcome to the club.” But, somehow, I don’t think that this will be an issue. I seriously doubt that anyone would be willing to spend the money and time that Jim has on this car.

Finally, to those of you who say that we commoners don’t have the right to opine on this issue, I give you a big Bronx cheer. At the end of the day, it is the market place that decides these types of controversies, not Ferrari, or even that group of which we do not speak.

Remember, my comment about BIG cars with issues? They still sell for millions of dollars to buyers who are fully aware of their history. Thus, some day, the last word will come when the Glickenhaus family decides to sell (and there is always is a time to sell), not you, or me, or the rest of us. At least in this case, no one can accuse Jim Glickenhaus of trying to pull a fast one.

Having said all this, I realize the futility of trying to inject some rationality into a debate such as this. Indeed, I doubt that most of the vocal advocates for either side have taken the time to even read this far into this post. Oh well, such is the Internet. You know that place where “Nobody Knows Your Name, But That Doesn’t Stop You From Getting Into Everybody’s Face.”

All the Best and The Worst, Dale

Ps Rob, can you start my post counter going backward? This is really getting embarrassing.

 

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. In this case, doesn't seems prudent, at least from the perspective of Mr. Piper.

 

I'm happy to, once we have proved that the 50% you talk of IS actually #0846 ... otherwise NO.

And:

Er, it will and there has already been many, many attempts and lots of money made ... so yes some are prepared to spend big and make bigger. Infact a well known British person spent some time in the clink for doing what you have suggested ... sort of

Pete

 

There's a very interesting article by Doug Nye in Sept. Octane which touches on some of these issues. There's also an article on another one of my cars J446 in the same issue. Duesenbergs as you know are referred to by their engine #'s not chassis number's.

Wayne one thing you are quite wrong about is the change in perception regarding what 0846, as it exists today, may or may not be, as a result of my research. There is no question that there has been a change. Even Doug has acknowledged that, albeit small in his case, change. Many other's have as well.

"I met Mr G. - didn't get to see his car (due purely to my misunderstanding of where it was located) -we had an interesting conversation - and by the way the car pictured above at Pebble Beach was indeed Laurence Stroll's ex-Bernie E., ex-Albert Obrist, ex-David Clark macchina - not the Glickenhaus-Piper Spl.

Regarding the latter entity I remain personally intensely suspicious about the owner's current claims for it, perhaps 5% from simple prejudice (because anybody who parades as a badge his preference for running such cars on the public road - like a wild bird in a cage - twangs my personal "what a tosser" chord, as I made clear) - but I spare a couple of per cent for the possibility (and I put it no stronger than that) that Jim Glickenhaus's declared beliefs and conclusions are based upon sustainable evidence....unless he, or someone working on the car, has indulged in some pretty serious wilful falsification (which I also made clear).

Some protestations - such as "it will never be sold" - are familiar old songs, which I have heard sung time after time by many such people and which seldom survive the honeymoon period before cupidity takes over and the dollar speaks.

But this affair was really number 396B in the subject-matter list last week, and from the few discussions I had - or overheard - with a number of prominenten involving this matter, it seemed that most were coming from the "ha ha pull the other leg, it's got bells on" end of the spectrum.

From listening to Mr G., I am not so totally dismissive.

But what he has - regardless - remains a deeply flawed motor car and is NOT to be regarded as '0846'. It might - just MIGHT - be the closest we can now get to it...but I still truly doubt it.

For what that's worth...

DCN"

Many, many, world renown concours and historic race organizations have invited this car describing it as 0846 to attend and as you've noted lack of invitations is not a problem for 0846. The last one it attended clearly identified this car as 0846 in their program. (Page 126). This listing was made by Veteran Car Club of Panormus after reading the 0846 papers. The 0846 papers were sent their representative before they invited the car and the listing they made in their program was made in their sole discretion after my disclosure, and until I saw it I was unaware of how they would choose to describe 0846. Nino Vaccarella's written thoughts on my car, after a through inspection at that event, also speak for themselves.

Unlike other who have opined Nino has actually driven 0846 three times in anger. (Page 124)

Dale
No matter how many times you state that this car will one day be sold, that statement remains purely opinion and more importantly irrelevant. Unlike other cars 0846 comes with 126 pages of disclosure. The idea that a potential buyer wouldn't be on notice is absurd. The idea that what 0846 is or isn't worth has, or could have, any material impact on me, my children, or my children's, children, (Should they come about) is equally absurd.

Best

 

I've read that issue of Octane with interest, and the article by Doug Nye struck me..........he seems to have been doing some deep thinking for whatever reason about the originality of old racing cars.

And there are certainly some supposedly 'no issues' cars out there that are a lot less original than Jim's P3/4, to my certain knowledge from what is in the public domain, as well as from what I have learned from this forum and others, and from talking to owners, restorers and mechanics at events like Goodwood.

And I've been looking myself at buying an old racecar for restoration, one that's described as having 'rusted chassis tubes replaced (original tubes kept for inspection)' and 'all-new body from original mould' and 'correct engine type for conversion' and no gearbox...........but an original cerified VIN plate. So what is it, by the definitions we've argued about for two-and-a-half years?

Answer:it's an old race-car, not a new one or a replica.

Paul M