The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Bingo. Ditto. 10/4. Over and Out.

 

LOL! Roger that!

*diving.............deeper..........deeper*

 

While I certainly don't blame anyone for believing anything they want, so long as they don't attempt by physical force to get me to change what I believe, I do think that anyone who doesn't immediately drop any belief they may have and do exactly what Dr Who, who is unquestionably the reincarnation of Dr. Hunter Thompson, tells them to do, is seriously tempting fate...

I remember the night we were stuck in Lodi again, (CCR wrote a song about it) when the good Doctor reminded me never to play Russian Roulette with a revolver loaded with 6 wad cutters...

 

603 NOS limited slip.
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They work okay on bats though.

 

Sorry Wayne, but you ain't gonna drag me down that path. Almost to a person, everybody I have spoken with who doesn't believe that Jim's car is a real Ferrari always ends up with, "And I just don't believe that Piper would have made a mistake like that."

In other words, Jim can present page after page of evidence supporting his position, but the naysayers still fall back to "I just don't believe..."

That's why this story will never end. All the expert historians have made up their minds that Jim's car cannot be related to #0846 based on their opinion of David Piper, at least that's the way it appears to me.

Personally, I don't really care. Come on, it's just a freaking car. Given all the bits and bytes that have been spent on this car, it just seemed appropriate to give my 2 cents in my 5,000th post. (Again, I'm rather embarrssed that I have made this many posts on a board where almost nobody reads what anyone else has posted because they are too busy making their own inane posts.)

My view is that everybody ought to grow up and dig it. I remember looking at the pics for hours. Very, very cool.

I also remember looking at the pics of 002C for hours.

It didn't matter to me that one has its papers in order and the other doesn't. Anybody who has worked with this old stuff can tell you that just turning over and over an old casing is far better than an evening spent in front of the tube.

And to Jim, my apologies again. I knew that you wouldn't like my comment about selling, but I was trying to make a point that these decisions are made in the marketplace, not by Ferrari, and certainly not by a bunch of self-appointed historians.

It just ticks me off that your car has been blackballed by a bunch of narrow-minded experts. The bottom line (to use some hip accountant speak) is that you have a very cool car. But you already know that. I just want to thank you again for sharing your car with all of us. You are clearly a better man than your critics.

Happy Trails, Dale

 

I disagree. Your pearls of wisdom are not pearls before swine.

There are plenty who appreciate the finer points of language, no matter how it is conveyed, whether inflects are regional or (pop) cultural references abound or not.

When one sends out a signal, sometimes nuance is lost in the translation to the receiver, but in your case, as with many (otherwise, I wouldn't live here), save for your well-intentioned but misguided absence, I am perfectly content with the content and context of the body of work in progress you've shared with us. You think I, let alone others missed the way you charged into your advice to Doody about hopping on a dirt bike? Man - I can still feel myself on that motorcycle. You put me there in my mind's eye through yours. Thanks! One does not have to respond to respond, if you can dig it.

Your choice of seasonings that make posts an enjoyable, informative read have an enthusiastic following, as you're widely read and appreciated, and frankly, missed.

Take the last letter off jaded, and you get jade.
___

'Napolis is doing the right thing. Some folks recognize that and are willing to help out in sourcing that which might go missing rather than claim all is lost or in vain. Info that some of us oftentimes send by PM or email rather than publish for all to see, as one would rather he had that important info than be be be undercut by prying eyes, 'cause parts ain't just parts in this case. It's the right thing to do.

 

I agree 100% with the above post, but especially:

^that^.

I miss your valuable perspective Dale. Don't let the pendulum of participation swing too far the other direction.

 

Dale, you forgot pompous and self-important <-obligatory smilie

I love to watch the "experts" flock to the latest $$$$ playa. Like flies on ****.

Jim buys some other cars with real cred, and they have their pants down.

Been there, done that. I foolishly thought I wanted to be in Telaio, after following some exceptional cars, tracking and acquiring parts, and pieceing together histories with scant facts back in pre-internet days. It actually was easier then, as it involved plane tickets and face to face meetings. Less BS when you look someone in the eye.

The net has made arrogant # chasers into the "guardians of history". They can have it. Some of us are busy making it.

PS, miss ya Dale. Wax and you are my favorite wordsmiths, not to mention fellow HST fans and masters of allusion. Truly need to spend some quality cocktail hours together someday.

 

What say these toiling denizens of righteousness about certain GTO's, LM's, TR's that sail into various meets??
Where are they when a NASCAR stocker disguised as a Scarab(which never ran the MM) runs the MM?
What happens when one of these "dubious" cars ends up in their showrooms?? They surely refuse their commissions in disgust....
Thank GOD they are saving us all.

 

Don't you love that patinated colour of old mechanical parts (no I don't mean rust). Now that's something you can't replicate.

Cheers
Simon

 

This stuff just falls in Jim's lap.

I'm just glad I'm not competing with him over a NOS steering wheel for a 365 GT4 2+2.

But if Sal can find one, please let me know...

 

Wayne, I need to give this up. I'm not adding anything to this "debate." Plus, I seriously doubt that the naysayers really give a flip what I (or anyone else) have to say about this issue. So I'll tie this off (at least from my end) with two thoughts:

A few years back I was traveling in a rental POS Jag when I stopped by a FCA event at Lime Rock. After previous experiences with the Porsche culture, I was very impressed. The Ferrari people were very laid back and cool about the whole thing. They even let me drive the Jag on the parade lap. I don't know if you have ever been to a PCA event, but talk about uptight, they probably will not even let you have a non-Porsche in the infield.

The point is that Ferrari people are car guys first. Thus, I'd like to think the Ferrari tent is big enough to accommodate Jim's car. While I don't know him, I'm guessing that Lawrence Stroll's ego is secure enough to not feel threaten by #0846*. I'm not saying that you and your fellow travelers have to agree that Jim's car is an original car. But, come on. It is a very cool car. At the end of the day, isn't this what it is all about?

My second thought is that if Jim had done this in, say, 1973, we would be reading about this car in Cavallino, and it would have been a frequent vistor to the lawn at Pebble by now. I'm sure that you know better than I that many of the current BIG cars have stories.

Let's be honest here. Back in the day, brand new street Ferraris were kit cars, and let's not even get into the race cars. Even straight from the factory they required tweaking. By the time the late 60s and early 70s rolled around, they were just cars. Many had been wreaked several times. At least one was used in a shop class. But by the time the world started caring again, no one paid any attention to their shady past. So if you're gonna bust Jim chops over this car, why now do the same for those current BIG cars that have a less than perfect past?

Personally, I say that we should do neither. The potential buyers of all these cars are pretty sharp cookies. They don't need our help. In fact, why did the recent auction at Ferrari bomb? Simple, the buyers knew that these cars were over priced.

From my limited perspective, I like cool cars. I don't care if Mr. Ferrari said grace over a car or not. Perhaps this is why I like Crystal Cove more than Monterey. Everybody drives their car to the event (although some are flat bedded away.) There are no rules. There are no prizes. A brand new Smart car gets as much attention as a Daytona. It is just car guys (and a few dealers) showing off their cars. Life is good.

Adios, Dale

 

It's tempting...

 

Dale,

I'd like to agree with you ... but I think you are behind the times. I honestly do not think that Ferrari people (even most on this site) are car guys first. There is way too much cleaning of Ferrari's nowadays and showing them in static situations and no where near enough driving.

Now it's great that some get something out of this cleaning ... but they are NOT car guys in my definition.

We also have to remember that many that own these rare and interesting cars are more like collectors than car guys and thus the numbers are a huge deal ... it is these people IMO who are harming the image of Ferrari more than they realise and raising the noses. If we could all just remind ourselves that they are just cool cars (as you say) and share that common interest it would be great. But those days are long gone.

Pete

 

Ye Gads! I can't believe you guys are still talking about that dang car (it does look real nice though )

I'm not sure there will ever be an official tally of posts but I imagine that the posts dedicated to 0846 outnumber all those silly threads about F1 vs 6speed and that nifty wooden F50 and I think more people have been banned than for any "controversial" subject in the P&R section. Jim should probably get a trophy or something.

 

Pete,

I think you live in the wrong neck of the woods. In the New York area these things are driven (assuming they are not in the shop ).

Regards,

Art S.

 

There is a car that is lot 78 in Next week's auction (Christie's). The Lot descritpion is very detailed. It has raced in the Ferrari Shell
Challenge Series. It is a wonderful car, accurately and fully described by Christie's . It is not an original 1935 Alfa Romeo 8 Cylinder Race Car. It is Alfa Romeo 8 Cylinder Racing 'Special' to 1935 Guise. This car was allowed to race in the Ferrari Shell Challenge Series and 0846 wasn't allowed to be at Cavallino in a non judged display?

Lee has named specific chassis #'s of suspect cars. No one has responded.
Bryan, Wayne, and Bill Noon have commented on the serious questions surrounding a car that Ferrari S.p.A. have issued an Authentication Certificates to.

I have personal knowledge of a "Major" Competition Ferrari that was built up in the 80's from parts that fit into a shoe box.

I still stand by my letter to Cavallino:

"It's interesting that over many years while some continue to scream fake, no one including Ferrari S.p.A. has refuted the "extensive documentation" behind my belief as to what happened to the chassis remains of 0846 and how they wound up where I believe they did."

 

I had a hammer for a long time , broke the handle , no way Im getting rid of it . Put a new handle on , kept it for a long time , broke part of the head , no way Im getting rid of it , put a new head on it . Im glad I still have that original hammer, Ill never get rid of it. Seems that the restoration world needs to come to some agreement on what parts should be from the actual car to consider it real. Engine block , frame , parts of each , I dont know. As above ,do I have the original hammer? No . Did I buy a new hammer? No.

 

While I agree "Grand Father's Axe" is an conundrum as your answers to your question shows this is really not what the 0846 debate is about. Exactly what I beleive 0846 as it exists today to be has been disclosed for years.
The only question is whether or not I'm correct.

 

MarkPDX...they DID give Mr. G a trophy! LOL!

I was there, munching my crawfish omelete......and turtle soup......

It was a beautiful crystal horse....I'll bet he still has it..............

The broken Dino246 got one, as well....."Spirit of the Event", I think it was.......

C'mon, Lee, we are going back!

*tossing keys*

 

Slightly off track, but, is there someone who keeps a list of the "less than original" cars that exist? Outing them here would probably result in lawsuits due to the fact they are worth a ton 'o money. I for one would like to know what I'm looking at when I attend some of these shows. Who decides that a car that has been put together from parts is accepted into the high end concours? Is it consensus among owners that determines a cars acceptance?